Post by Crunch on Apr 22, 2014 15:30:13 GMT -5
On Trello:
vindicator do-over?
Description
maybe make the burst based on hitpoints instead of shields...simplify shields, add a silver-like "regen all shields instantly" trigger, maybe become immune to pally/cane/kraken healing, maybe get rid of autoheal and have a heal trigger instead
How I would attempt to abuse this, immediately:
Take damage to only one side of the tank and attempt to keep that shield down. Manage HP with small towers/minions and approach larger towers with fully shielded side or forward blink. I'm guessing that with some practice, clearing towns will still remain obscenely easy for the Vindicator. Also, if HP is the only factor for damage output, simply intercepting two Butcher missiles would likely allow for a sizable burst while retaining the majority of your shields. I can't be sure without playing it, but this actually sounds somewhat safer than the current version of the Vind, especially considering the proposed triggers. I could be wrong, but nursing low HP + high shields could lend itself to large numbers of Vindicators tearing through wilderness regardless of minion/tower types. It doesn't seem like the strength of the Vindicator should come from maintaining low HP with nearly full shields, but this may be intended by design and not considered exploitative, simply smart gameplay. I thought that it was worth mentioning, all the same.
My personal thoughts on Vindicator:
So, I'd like to throw an idea out there to see what people think, and to see if Rob could weigh-in on its plausibility. You all probably recognize that I've spent a lot of time purposefully trying to find every possible cheesy exploit for this tank. Mostly because it naturally lends itself to limburger, but also because it has a really fun/engaging micro-management mechanic (even when played as intended). I'm grateful to be part of the testing environment, because using/finding exploits is a bit of a creative exercise, which is something I really enjoy. And up until most recently, I've been more concerned with finding issues than offering tips or ideas on fixing them.
So, here's a brief refresher for those interested: the Vindicator currently gets its power from having downed shields ((60 + 56 * [number of depleted shields]) * [Mod boost value] = damage). This would seem to imply that the player had taken damage to reduce the shields to whatever level they were at when the trigger was used. However, a simple abuse of the /drive function allows for the Vindicator to run around a city's edge without any shields ((60 + 56 * 15) * 1.5 = 1350) doing maximum damage. And if you employ the tactic of switching to a Tbolt for the faster cooldown, you can get a 1350 dmg blast off every 7 seconds or so. That's roughly 192 single-target dps, but we know that Vindicators do AoE damage... so, overkill ftw
Now, I absolutely love the idea of soaking up enemy fire and returning it in a concentrated burst. This is especially true anytime individual players are greatly out-classed by an enemy's damage and HP. It's very exciting to flirt with death for the sake of pulling off a really powerful, clutch maneuver. So, I've been thinking... Is it possible/practical for the Vindicator to "absorb" damage and expel a product of that damage as the blast? I imagine the trigger would initiate a state where all damage taken is counted/tallied for a short period of time, and then used as a factor in the damage output when the period expires. I'm not sure if this is even possible, given Grid12's current framework but it could allow for some good teamwork mechanics while avoiding the current cheese strategies. Allow me to explain:
• Damage must actually be taken: There is no simple way to cheese your way to high damage output with this method, save sitting on a high dps enemy and tp'ing to your target just before the blast. This mechanic could (should?) take shield damage into account as well. Shield rotation and damage distribution shouldn't just cease to be an important skill for the Vind.
• Enemy difficulty scaling: Using this method, the Vindicator could only return damage based on the actual damage dealt by enemies in its immediate vicinity (unless risky tps are used). This means that there would be a sizable variance in the damage output of the Vindicator, depending on how powerful the enemy attacks are (think Alpha Processors vs Deltas). Perhaps this doesn't seem like a big deal, but it is silly to me that Vindicators can currently kill any two small towers with a single blast, but struggle against the final segment of a Nova.
• Team/self heals increase damage: Absorbing high amounts of damage, without dying, would be crucial to maximizing output. If a Vind were to be healed during the absorption process, it could feasibly tank harder-hitting enemies and deal more damage afterward. Pallies, Hurricanes, Guardians, etc. have just one more reason to work together, if the benefit is worth the effort.
• Vindicators wont stack efficiently: Since Vindicators would actually have to be in the fray to return decent damage, they can't run in large groups without stealing dps from one another. This encourages banding together with a variety of classes, due to the value that group diversity simply adds to the survival of the Vind.
I had a few other thoughts/ideas, but I really don't think that they fit cohesively and didn't want to add any further text to this post. Perhaps if this thread gathers interest, we can discuss pros/cons on expanded ideas.
I'm really curious about the drawbacks of my suggestion, as I clearly see this tank through rose colored glasses. But after all, it really is the spirit of the tank I love: having to drive deep into the heart of your enemy's territory, risking your hide, letting off a giant blast of radiation... and killing everything at once. So, let me know what you all think.
Thanks
Description
maybe make the burst based on hitpoints instead of shields...simplify shields, add a silver-like "regen all shields instantly" trigger, maybe become immune to pally/cane/kraken healing, maybe get rid of autoheal and have a heal trigger instead
How I would attempt to abuse this, immediately:
Take damage to only one side of the tank and attempt to keep that shield down. Manage HP with small towers/minions and approach larger towers with fully shielded side or forward blink. I'm guessing that with some practice, clearing towns will still remain obscenely easy for the Vindicator. Also, if HP is the only factor for damage output, simply intercepting two Butcher missiles would likely allow for a sizable burst while retaining the majority of your shields. I can't be sure without playing it, but this actually sounds somewhat safer than the current version of the Vind, especially considering the proposed triggers. I could be wrong, but nursing low HP + high shields could lend itself to large numbers of Vindicators tearing through wilderness regardless of minion/tower types. It doesn't seem like the strength of the Vindicator should come from maintaining low HP with nearly full shields, but this may be intended by design and not considered exploitative, simply smart gameplay. I thought that it was worth mentioning, all the same.
My personal thoughts on Vindicator:
So, I'd like to throw an idea out there to see what people think, and to see if Rob could weigh-in on its plausibility. You all probably recognize that I've spent a lot of time purposefully trying to find every possible cheesy exploit for this tank. Mostly because it naturally lends itself to limburger, but also because it has a really fun/engaging micro-management mechanic (even when played as intended). I'm grateful to be part of the testing environment, because using/finding exploits is a bit of a creative exercise, which is something I really enjoy. And up until most recently, I've been more concerned with finding issues than offering tips or ideas on fixing them.
So, here's a brief refresher for those interested: the Vindicator currently gets its power from having downed shields ((60 + 56 * [number of depleted shields]) * [Mod boost value] = damage). This would seem to imply that the player had taken damage to reduce the shields to whatever level they were at when the trigger was used. However, a simple abuse of the /drive function allows for the Vindicator to run around a city's edge without any shields ((60 + 56 * 15) * 1.5 = 1350) doing maximum damage. And if you employ the tactic of switching to a Tbolt for the faster cooldown, you can get a 1350 dmg blast off every 7 seconds or so. That's roughly 192 single-target dps, but we know that Vindicators do AoE damage... so, overkill ftw
Now, I absolutely love the idea of soaking up enemy fire and returning it in a concentrated burst. This is especially true anytime individual players are greatly out-classed by an enemy's damage and HP. It's very exciting to flirt with death for the sake of pulling off a really powerful, clutch maneuver. So, I've been thinking... Is it possible/practical for the Vindicator to "absorb" damage and expel a product of that damage as the blast? I imagine the trigger would initiate a state where all damage taken is counted/tallied for a short period of time, and then used as a factor in the damage output when the period expires. I'm not sure if this is even possible, given Grid12's current framework but it could allow for some good teamwork mechanics while avoiding the current cheese strategies. Allow me to explain:
• Damage must actually be taken: There is no simple way to cheese your way to high damage output with this method, save sitting on a high dps enemy and tp'ing to your target just before the blast. This mechanic could (should?) take shield damage into account as well. Shield rotation and damage distribution shouldn't just cease to be an important skill for the Vind.
• Enemy difficulty scaling: Using this method, the Vindicator could only return damage based on the actual damage dealt by enemies in its immediate vicinity (unless risky tps are used). This means that there would be a sizable variance in the damage output of the Vindicator, depending on how powerful the enemy attacks are (think Alpha Processors vs Deltas). Perhaps this doesn't seem like a big deal, but it is silly to me that Vindicators can currently kill any two small towers with a single blast, but struggle against the final segment of a Nova.
• Team/self heals increase damage: Absorbing high amounts of damage, without dying, would be crucial to maximizing output. If a Vind were to be healed during the absorption process, it could feasibly tank harder-hitting enemies and deal more damage afterward. Pallies, Hurricanes, Guardians, etc. have just one more reason to work together, if the benefit is worth the effort.
• Vindicators wont stack efficiently: Since Vindicators would actually have to be in the fray to return decent damage, they can't run in large groups without stealing dps from one another. This encourages banding together with a variety of classes, due to the value that group diversity simply adds to the survival of the Vind.
I had a few other thoughts/ideas, but I really don't think that they fit cohesively and didn't want to add any further text to this post. Perhaps if this thread gathers interest, we can discuss pros/cons on expanded ideas.
I'm really curious about the drawbacks of my suggestion, as I clearly see this tank through rose colored glasses. But after all, it really is the spirit of the tank I love: having to drive deep into the heart of your enemy's territory, risking your hide, letting off a giant blast of radiation... and killing everything at once. So, let me know what you all think.
Thanks
♥.
