What tanks need a buff or nerf?

[secretlyBoathouse2112]

First of all, screw proboards. I can't get it to activate and it keeps telling me to put in the activation code. It also won't let me post under the account name I tried to create.

Actual message:
With no prisms, Hornet is a pretty balanced tank. You have your range increaser for some safe artillery, and some abilities to let you hit-and-run. With 2 range pulches, however, the Hornet outranges around half of the buildings in the game, including supertanks and Grid Commanders (or whatever they're called). Failing that, you can outrange every building in the game by pressing 2, or you can go in, kill the 400 hp building with lighting, and escape with your dash. A small range nerf would most likely fix these issues by making it possible to be hit in it's pulched form.

[tarbomb]

@boathouse Being able to hit targets from outside their range does not make the hornet unbalanced.

First: except in ionic regions, you need to have the rangeboost activated in order to do so, and rangeboost takes forever to recharge.

Second: the hornet has no forward shields and would be shredded if it had to stay inside the firing range of enemies for any decent amount of time.

Third: the hornet fires slowly, meaning that on a minion-mobbed enemy a large portion of shots are likely to hit the wring target.

Fourth: with no mob control abilities, the hornet has no defense against minions (trigger 4 only hits a single target and is for all intents and purposes useless), and needs to stay beyond aggro range to stay safe.

Hornet's really a frustrating tank to play solo against anything but watchtowers; it's only in a team that can take care of the minions that it comes into its own.

[SecretlyBoathouse2112]

Yeah, I played around some more yesterday and the range thing isn't true everywhere. I'm still not sure what decides it...

[tarbomb]

Ionic regions (green terrain) give you a 50% buff to your tank's range.

[rob]

Based on the discussion here plus my own insights, I'm planning the following changes:

Hurricane
* increase shield thickness from 200 to 250
* increase damage from 8 to 10 (60 dps to 75 dps)

Spectre
* increase turret rotation rate from 75 deg/s to 90 deg/s
* increase rate of fire from .833 shots/s to 1.25 shots/s (50 dps to 75 dps)

Valkyrie
* increase front gun damage from 5 to 7 (20 dps to 28 dps)
* increase shotgun damage from 20 to 40 (still 1 shot/s, so max single-target dps goes from 20 to 40)
* increase main turret rotation rate from 75 deg/s to 90 deg/s

Avenger
* reduce main gun damage from 17 to 15 (68 dps to 60 dps -- front gun remains 16 dps)
* reduce positronic overcharge damage boost from +200% to +150%

Wildfire
* reduce front gun damage from 13 to 11 (39 dps to 33 dps)
* reduce lightning damage from 15 to 13 (36 dps to 31 dps)

Fury
* reduce damage from 15 to 13 (75 dps to 65 dps)
* reduce chronoton hyper boost damage modifier from +150% to +100% (no change to cooldown so total boost goes from +525% dps to +400% dps)

The goal is not to bring DPS parity to all tanks, because there are many many more factors, such as range, arcs, shields, triggers, etc that make tanks different. The goal is to make each tank approximately as effective as all the other tanks in a general overall sense.

I'd appreciate constructive feedback. I realize that Avenger, Wildfire and Fury are most people's favorite tanks, and that nobody wants their favorite tank nerfed. But unfortunately that's how it goes -- the OP tanks get nerfed. Perhaps a new set of favorites will emerge after this?

[quicklite]

Huh. Well, I can agree with all of those. Why not the Hercules, though? Do you feel like it's powerful enough, and if so, why?

[tarbomb]

I agree with the hurricane, wildfire, valkyrie, and fury changes.

I feel that avenger would be better served with a shield nerf (or a nerf to the 3-shield recharge) than a straight DPS nerf, since there should be a tank playing the role of the glass cannon.

Frankly I'm not sure whether spectre needs a buff at all; it's a pretty nice tank to pilot as is, especially in teams. Viking, on the other hand, needs a slight buff in order to keep it competitive.

quicklite: I don't think that Hercules should be buffed per se, but it should definitely be changed. 1500HP is amazing, but it's not really a tank I want to use because the crappy DPS makes it so boring. Then again, a shield nerf would make it too generic, so I propose these changes: shields and HP are kept constant, the main gun gets its range nerfed to a third of its current range and two thirds of its current damage (making it a defensive anti-minion weapon only), and the bombs do twice the damage and recharge four times as fast to compensate. That would make herc a tank with a unique appeal, while not causing it to be overpowered.

[gingerbear]

I think Avenger is not too powerful in either way because it has single targeting and is seriously screwed in mobs (can only shoot at two targets, anyway). The last updates turret slow down has already had a noticable drop in its efficiency while trying to get to the towers, I have yet to see how weak it will be after this update. If it seems to be in order then I won't complain (even if Avenger is one of my favs.), although I might ask for re-speeding up the main turrets rotation speed.

I welcome the Hurricane, Valkyre (Yaaaay!), Wildfire and Fury changes, too.

Neutral on Spectre, never liked it much, maybe now.

I'm looking forward to a Hercules change (buffing abilities to make it a mine laying god) and a Viking change (wisening the AI). I guess the Phantom could use some more love, too.

[hypevosa]

I would rather have had the HP nerf for the wildfire for a skill based DPS tank, compared to the raw force of the avenger Ah well.

Aside from that, the changes sound great.

[Ood]

As of Build 51:

++Buff:++
Hercules
What the devil is it actually good for? A corsair makes for a better meatshield. Either rethink it entirely, or significantly buff its (and perhaps all) mines.

Trailblazer
More speed? 2.5-3 grids/second instead of 2.2? Perhaps nerf it's overdrive a touch to go with this.

Hornet:
It just needs more range if it's ever going to be a good sniper. It has no frontal shield, the spectre does, but their range is the same. The spectre does more damage to boot.

--Nerf:--
Corsair
Frontal shield regen is very fast when coupled with trigger 1. When taking out a convoy you almost only need 1 corsair to eat all the damage.

Valk:
It still feels OP to me... I've less concrete reasons why... it just does.

Spectre:
Same as valk

[tarbomb]

Valk and spectre seem about right. IMHO none of the tanks in this build seem too powerful - there are some weaklings (silver, herc, perhaps hurricane) though.

[gingerbear]

I think valk is kind of meh.

Corsair is not OP. If it gets hit from any other side than that very thin front shield it's dead. Literally. And it needs not to be you to mess up, it's sufficient if you get a sudden lag spike, or someone in a party messes up a stun or something. As long as you have to trail behind something you are fine, but that its pretty much all a corsair can do.

I agree with hercules needing a buff. The mines are too weak and the main cannon does laughable damage.

Yes, there has to be a clear difference between spectre and hornet, since right now the latter one is almost better at anything. I would agree with a range increase, however that would first require the changing of the current loot system, as what's the point of sniping from afar if you get no drop?

I still say Vikings main gun should be less easy to distract from the big targets.

[hypevosa]

Gingerbear and tarbomb have stated all my counter arguments to ood.

Valk if anything feels like a very balanced tank - it doesn't really excel at anything...

[delsy]

I think that, despite its poor DPS and trigger damage, I would enjoy using Hercules in general play (convoys, maybe not so much) if not for how deceptively weak its all-round shielding makes it. Other tanks with multiple shields, I can get away with letting a shield fall, because I have the option of taking some hits to the hull or other shields while it recharges. Not with Hercules. Other tanks, I'll take more hits on the hull than is wise to let a shield recharge fully, then charge in and finish off the main threat.

I propose a change to Trigger 3 to take advantage of Herc's beefiness. Instant shield refill would be okay, but it also feels like slapping a bandaid on. Instead, how about this: for a few seconds, Hercules takes half incoming damage to the hull, not the shield. After that, the shield is recharged by twice the damage Hercules took (rather, the full incoming damage). The cooldown might not even need to be long. It would be risky to use it repeatedly in prolonged firefights.

"The Hercules' force shields retract within its sympathetic armor plating, dissipating destructive energies and routing them to shield batteries."

[hypevosa]

Having the shields be able to overcharge if that's the case would be nice.