Build 63

[Kelsoo]

Aug 15, 2013 7:47:43 GMT -5 hypevosa said:

No one is clearing anything, no one is connecting towns anymore, etc. The game is now discordant and broken thanks to throwing the rewards all to exploration. Please, give people a reason to clear regions again, and to connect towns, etc.

That is unfortunate, but clearing was slowly dying off anyways. I foresaw this the moment I started getting bored of clearing, it has a certain degree of "Oh this is fun! I am learning many enemy attack patterns etc..." but it really starts dying off quickly. Even with and incentive, clearing is very stale, with not nearly enough enemies to make it completely diverse along with (some enemies just not spawning enough or being to little in abundance) the complete lack of danger to death.. it just isn't very fun. The only reason I would ever find myself to clear is to quickly get back pulches at the off chance that I died from a Zeta that you have to be lucky to find anyways.

I feel as of now, new content should be slowed and more work should be put into fixing things that are clearly broken or in need of more interesting changes. Things like convoys (being all except for one of them revolve *completely* around the same strategy of "follow behind it and clear the minions then kill the boss") or clearing, the building system, some specific tank balances/ Zeta reworking. death and pulch balances.

The game is very clearing breaking more and more. I fear that the rush of new content will be far to much, we have plenty of content as of now that needs a lot of changes with the game in its contorted state.

Edit: Editing off the charts: So many Edits: With the removal of VP it now calls for more innovation to the Augment system, gone are the days where you can very quickly obtain 7's on tanks with a nice time frame then upgrade with Augs. It basically makes this Grind12 2.0 with Augs, and with their minimal increase in performance, I don't see a reason to grind that much anyways. No one is clearing regions at all, just making minimal effort pockets to do convoys, Zeta's are a pipe dream.

The games direction feels quite lost, everyone is focusing on convoys with no real interest in clearing, this is a newbs nightmare, and will do poorly for keeping players that have no idea what they are doing interested, the tutorial teaches them to clear, but they will be met with no help now that convoys are the new clearing, and playing Silver will probably leave an awful taste in any new players mouth. I could go on.

The new drills are... ugly? I mean I don't really like the changes aside from making tighter space, the ability for all the turrets to circle just adds a "sit in right place hold down W" vibe. Boring. Boring. I think making only the spawners circle along with one being invinc until the tower is dead would be a nice touch. But as it stands people still just want to sit on them, lazy triumphs over clearing, but fun/ a reward that is proper triumphs over both they really should drop guaranteed prisms at this point for a minor incentive.

As for the new tanks I have no real interest in grinding that far up the ladder, with them coming out I feel the way tank unlocks (and Augs in general) needs to have some changes made.

[Ood]

New tank isn't anything special.

AoE DoT burst doesn't even kill the weakest of vehicles (other tanks have aoe abilities that demolish minions instantly).
Target specific gun is okay, but it makes the tank decent at a few things, and exceptionally bad at everythign else.
Shielding is nice, as is trigger.
Mine trigger needs a buff in damage.
Heal seems out of place.

[Guest]

The game are some... I guess contradictions, in the basic game design we're moving towards.

Misc. quotes from in game(note: not necessarily my opinions):

"This is just part of a larger movement from a co-op game to an egocentric, antisocial co-mob."

"Right now it feels like the game is breaking more and more with every update."

"Recent changes go completely against some of the basic ideas envisioned in the earlier days of Grid, which would be fine if half of the game wasn't still aiming for that."

[quicklite]

That's a little harsh, 0...I know those aren't ur opinions, but to state that that is how people on grid feel is a little extreme. I agree that grid is currently slightly broken, but not in just a doomsday-esque, extreme, unsaveable fashion as those quotes appear to show. I think that all that is needed is for a few tough forts (with good loot) to be implemented, GCTs, drills, and deltas given a large difficulty, minion, and loot buff, and then make the new fortresses common enough in a region that cherry picking them would be idiotic. Because the only thing really stopping clearing from being a thing is its lack of difficulty (similar, reptetive, uninteresting foes that put you in no real danger. Yes, I know this wasn't always the case, but now not only are more folks online, but tanks, both old and new, have simply gotten stronger.) and profitability (even when fighting drills and deltas, a drop from them that you'd be really lucky to get is a drop that you would be pretty unlucky to get from a convoy. Not that loot is everything, but loot is still means a lot). Add those 2 things, and although the problem won't be solved, it will be lessened to a very large extent.

And one more thing: something that is more important than both those things is enemy creativity. Yes, I am saying that rob needs to get creative (no offense, rob). Any fool can just kill something that attacks in the same, boring, direct way: you just need to sit on the thing, and autofire does the rest. The new fortresses IMO need to get people to really think on their feet. A good example would be the old drills and the watchtower. The old drills, unless 'neutered' by targeting the annexes, would flood you with minions when you tried to assault the main thing. This meant that you either had to change your tactics and targeting, or figure out how to deal with the surplus minions. The watchtower, on the other hand, turns the surrounding areas into a hopscotch of death, forcing you to time your attacks and hone your driving skills. We need more tanks that really make a simple, frontal assault an idiotic, inefficient, and possibly suicidal tactic, forcing players to think for a change. That, in my opinion, matters more than the last 2 things combined.

[osx]

Aug 14, 2013 20:21:47 GMT -5 K said:

I think that death should remove all prisms, completely.
Definitely adds to the feeling of perma-death. Also would discourage suicides of non-pulched players.

When was it stated that this game is perma-death? Personally I don't think this game is perma-death at all, nor should it be. It's not Realm of the Mad God, don't try and make it that.

[sol]

This build makes NO sense. Just saying.

So, basically, first off, you completely removed VP without any compensation, therefore, the people that were saving up and grinding for more VP lost hours, if not DAYS of work for nothing. There was NO warning to the playerbase that I saw saying to spend our VP before they're all wiped.

Next off, why do you keep adding tanks that are so darn hard to get? Not every player has absurd skill and can get these tanks. As of now, only like 5 players have the Minotaur, and maybe 3 players have the Kraken. So, basically, you're COMPLETELY ignoring the average playerbase and rewarding the hardcore elitist playerbase. As of now there have been like, NO mid-tier tanks added. You keep adding tanks that are impossible for the majority of us to get.

And what's up with this new rewarding system? Go look at the minimap please. People are ALL playing trailblazers and discovering towns then moving on to the next discovery, because what's the point in clearing now? Gridshards are completely unrewarding due to the removal of VP, thus clearing out towns is pointless. So is clearing regions.

You need to add some sort of system that not only rewards the scouts, but also the clearers. Not everybody likes to scout, you know. I personally enjoy clearing, but now there's no point in doing that.

My suggestions:

Have different BRANCHES of tanks. Like, maybe 3 different families of tanks. The scouts(trailblazer, Silver, etc.), the melees (Hercules, Mustang, Phantom, Hurricane, etc.), and the voyers (Cutlass, Avenger, Hornet, Paladin, etc.) or something. Have all of the tanks be separated into those three categories. And instead of having tanks be unlocked augment-style like it is now (which seems incredibly inefficient to me), have the families level seperately, and maybe once you get so many augments on Scout tank A, tank B unlocks, or something.

Find a use for Gridshards. I felt like the system of VP worked EXCELLENTLY, especially for those that wanted to meld their lower leveled Augs and use VP for leveling their low-leveled tanks.

Add a reward system for players that clear out buildings, just like you have a reward system for those that scout out for new towns.

Add a reward system for players that connect towns.

Add a reward system for players that kill voys.

Add different phases to Zetas, not just the one bomb phase which wrecks all melee tanks.
My Zeta phase suggestion:

Anti ranged phase:
Zeta towers begin shooting out bombs that ONLY go far outwards, not close to the Zeta towers, allowing melees to get in some damage. At the same time, the central zeta tower is shooting out hurricane-like shots, doing a little damage to the Melee tanks. The Zeta towers are UNSTUNNABLE during this phase.

Anti-Melee phase:
Hurricane-like shots intensify and deal much more damage. Zeta Towers drop bombs that have a 1 second timer before exploding and dealing average damage. Zeta Towers are UNSTUNNABLE during this phase.

Between phases, there is a 5 second invulnerablity phase, in which the towers do absolutely NOTHING. This is to give the players a little bit of time to switch tanks and partially replenish their shields.

Buff the time that Zeta stays in the Region to 7 minutes, and have a teleporting area (like a town teleporter) near the Zeta so people can get to it immediately.

Just my two cents. Sorry for the negative post. I do like this game, Rob, but the path you're taking it is... Not appealing in some ways.
Sorry for the long and drawn out post.

~israphial

[israphial]

^That account is me. Sorry for the confusion. I thought that we had to remake an account for the new forums. Please direct any replies to THIS account.

[kable]

When we suggested the convoy routes showing, I didn't expect something so... In-your-face. I thought differently tiled grounds would be sufficient, but these lines are just very distracting.

What's been said about scouting, I can agree with. Right now I'm looking at a whopping 9 towns that have yet to be connected, and to be honest all I feel like doing is trying to find more.

Also, there's no purpose for gridshards. Upgrade towns? Not necessary. I don't see why VP couldn't be used for something else.

[gingerbear]

I know I'm complaining too. Still, to see through the mess I guess I have to make a list with suggestions, at least to know what the current state is.


Build 63

• Broken: Map is too big, lags, there aren't really cleared areas, mostly connects and convoy lanes.
  Possible Cause: Inbalanced Reward System
  Possible Fixes:
  
  • Decrease the reward for scouting. Level 10 - 12 items are obnoxiously high, given that the average convoy drop is 6-9, same goes for delta loot. Scale down scouting reward appropiately. (I'd suggest level 6-8 drops)
  • Temporarily add back the VP system, I would even double the exchange ratio. This can be removed when a real fix comes
  • If the VP system is not coming back, reward clearing activities.
    My suggestions:
    - Level 6-8 drops for town connect (in place of the old 50k shard reward).
    - Level 6-8 drops for every 300 towers killed. There are 900 towers in a region (30x30 grid), this would mean 3 loot if you clear the whole. Similarly, there is an average of 3 cities in a region (I'm guessing), so clearing would reward the same as exploring... only a bit slower. You can of course decrease this kill count to encourage clearing, maybe to as small as 100-150.
  
  
• Broken: Obtaining new tanks is just as difficult as obtaining better items, even though there is no (sustainable) linear progression between them.
  Possible Cause: Forcing the same item system on tanks
  Possible Solution: There has been many suggestions, at least I remember discussing this with Rob in game chat. The most logical step would be to "branch" tanks into families, where no family goes over level 20, as obtaining even a level 18 requires a lot of time and dedication. I'd even risk to say that 15 levels in a tank branch would suffice - and the highest drop would be 10, so it would be still time consuming to unlock one. Tweaking drop rates could also help if the low level of tanks seem to make it "easy". These branches can be unthemed (grouped by release date) or themed (based on role, type, etc. like isra suggested), it doesn't matter much at this point.
• Broken: The building system
  Possible Cause: It's on-the-fly design
  Possible Solution: This has been discussed in other topics. Not restarting it as it's a complex case, but I'd suggest to start working on it. The game has enough content already, it would be nice if it weren't a broken one.

[Guest]

Quick, I'm sorry if you think it is "a bit harsh". Just posting some quotes from the in game chat. I do agree that some of the things people have been saying are a bit extreme, though most of them are completely right, just making a bigger deal out of things than they maybe should.

Unfiltered thoughts on tank unlocks:

Rather than branching out into different families using the same system of tank item drops from enemies, there's the possibility of alternative ways to unlock tanks. For example, say I just got my 1000th fortress kill. Cobra awarded! The tanks don't have to (or should be) grouped by theme, but alternative ways to unlock them seems a lot mor fun, and means that you can easily ad low/mid "level" tanks. Of course, there should always be the minotaur/kraken-rare tanks, because having everything just isn't fun!

Minotaur seems ages away? Maybe I'll get some more fortress kills, or work towards increasing my guild's rank and earn everyone a peacekeeper, or why not try to figure out how to unlock this new mysterious tank that was added last week. And by the time I'm trying to get that minotaur again, I'm already two thirds of the way there.

What if convoys dropped a different type of tank unlocks than forts? What if I suddenly found myself in this strange region with all new enemies I haven't seen before, and their tank drops were of a different type? What if I won some fun competition or logged in during an event, and got a tank of a different type(some would use it, some would save it to meld into other "event" tanks, some would sell it, and some would be that one rich guy who spends half his fortune to buy them all).

All just examples of course. The more tanks there are, the more types, or families of tanks there might be. For maximum fun: Don't always tell people how to get a new tank... maybe it would need to be free to use for a while for testing purposes though. Which reminds me, a free tank rotation is something I really hope we'll get. Even now with only about 20 tanks, it would already work well I think.

Looks like I'll have to end it here. I hope what I wrote wasn't all bullshit.

(Hey, look at that. Post got a bit longer than I expected. It's what happens when I just write what's on my mind I guess.)

[Kelsoo]

Building system definitely needs some restructuring, as it stands I would die before I ever reach a level 25 tank unlock. You could always stick with this one and let bigger bosses drop bigger rewards, but that has proven to be more than broken, the reason why everyone just does convoys, even Zeta's can hardly compare to the ample lavish amount of rewards convoys will give you.

And just a straight building up system is boring. It works to about level 14 but then it just turns into such a tedious and seemingly pointless grind.

I suggest removing the reward for discovering towns completely, and making the reward distributed among those who helped connect the towns, rather than promote full on solo finding then never bothering to connect.

Other broken things? Well with the removal of VP and quick 7's you are now forced to clear if you want those, but no one really will because augs really don't do all that much in the way of helping anyways.... so more grind for seemingly nothing. The newb nightmare now needs fixing. I mean, things are starting to slightly break.

Also being a former advocate of making prisms work like augs, do not do this as of now. I agreed with most points on it, but it had many faults, and rightly so, I think eventually Prisms need an overhaul, but doing that now would turn this into utter Grind12 2.0

[amitp]

Aug 15, 2013 23:47:32 GMT -5 sol said:

So, basically, first off, you completely removed VP without any compensation, therefore, the people that were saving up and grinding for more VP lost hours, if not DAYS of work for nothing. There was NO warning to the playerbase that I saw saying to spend our VP before they're all wiped.

This game is in testing. You should expect that everything you have can get deleted at any time. It has happened several times before and it will likely happen again! :)

[fsm]

Scouting rewards right now are very anti-coop. Just now I was scouting an area and ran into a few deltas. Called for a bit of help, and my help ends up discovering a town and getting rewarded for it, while I get nothing for the scouting I did. Thats a terrible incentive structure.

[Kelsoo]

Unable to play, it loads in but only shows differing colors, others have reported this as well, but it is not affecting everyone. Everywhere you move different colors that cover up the screen.

Now fixed, Flashplayer was having some troubles, looks like turning on Pep and off for the actual one I use then turning back off Pep works.

[Hock Space]

I can log in fine i just see a wildfire with no name sitting in one spot at spawn. It just says player with the tank stats when I move my mouse over it.