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Post by hypevosa on Aug 23, 2013 19:02:09 GMT -5
I hope we don't get wiped - or at least not completely wiped. Putting in all these hours to test the game, I feel the least we could do is start out with a minimum package instead of starting out with nothing at all. A few credits, all our tank unlocks, maybe level X max augment for all tanks, whatever is left in our inventory, however much storage we unlocked, etc. But starting out with nothing after doing all that work would be an unkindness for the dedication put in.
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Post by rob on Aug 23, 2013 20:23:42 GMT -5
The planned wipe is just for XP. We plan to give plenty of notice about it.
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Post by rob on Aug 23, 2013 20:29:15 GMT -5
Here is a list of tanks that I never see used/ see used sometimes, but are outclassed heavily by their brothers or virtually have no use to me as well: Phantom, Viking, Hurricane, Wildfire, and the Wolverine. Based on your very well reasoned and clearly worded analysis, I buffed Phantom, Viking, Hurricane and Wolverine. Then I buffed Silver and Mustang too. The details are in the roadmap, and the changes will be out in build 65. Thanks Kelsoo! |
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Post by dd321123 on Aug 23, 2013 20:47:29 GMT -5
It'd be nice to, on each leaderboard, be able to see your spot on it.
I've actually been wondering about my fortresses killed, it'd also be nice to have a highest leveled tank leaderboard, in xp.
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Post by Ood on Aug 23, 2013 20:59:40 GMT -5
@ Phantom 'Buff' (before it happens)
For reference:
Fine, except for the biggest change. The phantom does NOT need a cloak. It is there to take damage, please keep the invulnerability trigger.
Phantom is about being beefy. It just is. Used properly, I'd venture to say it's very very near the hercules in 'tanking' ability, and in my mind it is significantly more valuable in a group than a Herc, because it can keep going (rotate your shields) when the herc has to back out and wait forever for it's shield to regen. Changing invulnerability to cloak defeats the point of the Phantom taking damage for the group.
You wouldn't take the paladin's heal gun away, and give it a Valkshotgun. Don't take the phantom's invulnerability away and give it a cloak.
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Post by Kelsoo on Aug 23, 2013 21:09:48 GMT -5
@ Phantom 'Buff' (before it happens) Fine, except for the biggest change. The phantom does NOT need a cloak. It is there to take damage, please keep the invulnerability trigger. Phantom is about being beefy. It just is. Used properly, I'd venture to say it's very very near the hercules in 'tanking' ability, and in my mind it is significantly more valuable in a group than a Herc, because it can keep going (rotate your shields) when the herc has to back out and wait forever for it's shield to regen. Changing invulnerability to cloak defeats the point of the Phantom taking damage for the group. The Phantom using its invincibility really does not benefit the group much unless you are in the middle of a super tanks, where as it benefits the Phantom, and I would say more than the group. I see many people still have to retreat in small groups, and in this auto fire system you kind of are all taking damage regardless. The Phantom can still compare to the Herc and I would definitely even now go all the way to say that it can tank just as well as a Herc, able to run let a Flux run it over. Changing invun to cloak when used right should allow it to tank even more for the group. I see the cloak as allowing the Phantom to A) Sit on an enemy and B) Allow your shields to regen so you can tank a bit more, which would benefit the group. Ood, with the Phantoms new complete beef cake structure and shields that would make a Fury jealous, invincibility really is not needed, you're already tanking enough. |
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Post by Ood on Aug 23, 2013 22:25:18 GMT -5
No, it will not be able to tank better with a cloak. It might become more survivable but not tank better. It will not be able to tank as much damage from a super tank. Not be able to tank as much damage from a drill. Not be able to tank as much damage from a delta. Not be able to distract a GCT bomb. Not be able to distract Zeta bombs.
A phantom eats damage for the group. A cloak is ENTIRELY contrary to that point.
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Post by hypevosa on Aug 23, 2013 23:24:49 GMT -5
The planned wipe is just for XP. We plan to give plenty of notice about it. Thanks ^_^ No, it will not be able to tank better with a cloak. It might become more survivable but not tank better. It will not be able to tank as much damage from a super tank. Not be able to tank as much damage from a drill. Not be able to tank as much damage from a delta. Not be able to distract a GCT bomb. Not be able to distract Zeta bombs. A phantom eats damage for the group. A cloak is ENTIRELY contrary to that point. Also, I have to agree with Ood in this argument, the invincibility was a unique and very tanky trigger that would well benefit the entire group if used properly. However, the problem, ood, is that in no situation can I see where invincibility is better than disarm for the whole group. Thus, herc is still 100% better to me because it has a disarm that saves everyone's butts, AND it can tank. It really doesn't get much better, and I don't think we can really make the phantom as tanky as herc. Thus, what I see Rob doing, is turning it into a really good group damage dealer as was likely always intended with the thing that's toting around 6 guns. We're abolishing the archetype that it accidentally fell into and restablishing it more firmly in its intended archetype by giving it a good cloak, better shields, and double damage trigger. |
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Post by Kelsoo on Aug 24, 2013 1:39:17 GMT -5
No, it will not be able to tank better with a cloak. It might become more survivable but not tank better. It will not be able to tank as much damage from a super tank. Not be able to tank as much damage from a drill. Not be able to tank as much damage from a delta. Not be able to distract a GCT bomb. Not be able to distract Zeta bombs. A phantom eats damage for the group. A cloak is ENTIRELY contrary to that point. I think you are romancing the invincibility trigger for much more than it was ever worth. Besides the point that with the Phantom's much stronger shields and the such, adding invincibility would be pointless (not entirely), I mean would you want the Herc to have an invinc trigger? It just isn't needed now that the Phantom is already tanking alot of damage. Besides that, the situations where going invincible was actually helpful to the team were minimal, and regardless, because of auto - aim you were all still taking the same amount of damage just not the Phantom. As for distracting a GCT bomb, I rarely see an occurrence of a Phantom being used just right, like that. And when it does that it really isn't that much of a help, as GCT's go down fine in most situations. And in almost all situations, a Phantom going invinc during a Zeta fight would either get itself killed, or more likely it would end up accidentally dragging them towards the group and killing off many people, being more of a detriment than anything else unless you knew what you were doing. But in which case it really doesn't do much other than drag one pair of bombs out. Which any tank can do by circling the facilities. The situations where invincibility actually blocks damage for the group are rare (in fact really having a "tanky" tank in this game usually doesn't really block any better than other tanks, just means you will last longer). In fact the only ones I can think of now are at a Delta, which it is somewhat useful. For the drills almost any tank can get up close and shield rotate, even a Predator can last throughout a drill with no retreat. Convoys in particular are where something like this will shine. But in which case the Phantoms invincibility simply would not last long enough for it to let other tanks in beside it, and if did last long enough, it would become OP. The invisibility will let the Phantom do more damage, and regenerate it's outer shields giving it more beefyness to go round. |
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Post by gingerbear on Aug 24, 2013 4:53:41 GMT -5
Ah, having that much things that has "level" in their name, is a bit confusing. -.-"
Of course, that would be nice, assuming there is no arbitrary level limit one can reach. I mean, the usability of those levels is only as much as the things they unlock. For example, if the highest tier thing you can get is unlocked at lvl 20, then there is no point having a lvl 21, unless you plan on adding more things in the future.
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Post by rob on Aug 24, 2013 7:02:59 GMT -5
Hey Guys,
When I was working on the Phantom yesterday, I was just trying to make it so it "does its best work when surrounded". That is, to make all 6 guns work, you've got to have enemies on all sides, and the Phantom was not able to last long in that situation. So I increased shields and gave two different ways to recharge them. Also I figured if the Phantom can shoot in all directions, it doesn't need to freeze its enemies. Once surrounded, the Phantom would want to buff up its guns to really pour on the damage.
I actually think it might be too much of a beast now, but we'll find out if it needs to be turned down next Wednesday.
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Post by Guest on Aug 24, 2013 7:23:47 GMT -5
because of auto - aim you were all still taking the same amount of damage just not the Phantom. This sums up Kelsoo's argument nicely. Too bad it not only isn't true, but does apply to a cloak trigger. With a cloak, the others tank the damage you would have taken. With invulnerability, you're essentially a 360 degree corsair for a short amount of time. And that's great. Basically, cloak on any "tank" tank is the opposite of co-op. It's just more suited for the "glass cannon"-like tanks that aren't meant to take a lot of damage for the team. |
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ahuff
Brave Tester
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Post by ahuff on Aug 24, 2013 7:44:26 GMT -5
XP Rewards: Minions give 1 xp at a 80 percent chance I have observed, You can average 20 xp for a small camp that takes 5 seconds. Drills stockades give 15x15= 225 xp plus 10 for the annex's and 15 for a total of 250, very nice exp  but farming small camps is better for grinding xp. Also the sentry gun towers give a total of ~50-80xp, still not worth the time unless a drill is near and you need to destroy maybe one gun. Is the xp formula 1 xp for every 100 hp? |
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Post by Ood on Aug 24, 2013 8:51:05 GMT -5
That is the Phantom's description.
No, we're sticking it into an group that it doesn't belong.
Do you want 'does its best work when surrounded' to mean can kill a lot of things when surrounded (it can already do). Or to be a co-op tank that eats damage, lets the group dismantle things from safety, and still keep going? The shield/gun buffs aren't what some of us have a problem with, it's the cloak that is contrary to the point of the tank.
Thanks Null. That. Exactly.
Aside:
Ahuff:
XP is based on gridshard pickup, not actual kills. You get 0 xp for killing anything. You get 1 xp per 100 gridshards looted (whether you killed or not). If you don't pickup the drop , you don't get xp.
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Post by hypevosa on Aug 24, 2013 11:24:11 GMT -5
Ood, he literally JUST said what I was saying: being tanky is expressly not the purpose behind the phantom, it's to be the best overall damage dealer when it's surrounded by enemies. That's why the thing has 6 guns to begin with and multi sectioned shielding. Hercules was intended to be the tanky tank with massive HP, massive shielding, and disarm trigger - Phantom was never meant to be that tank. Ever.
That said, I understand that you feel the tank is losing a cooperative aspect to it, even if it's one I've never really seen used. (I've only been witness to the invulnerability being abused for looting >_>) The only thing I can think of that would make it more cooperative, but still fit snugly in its intended niche of "does its best work when surrounded" is a trigger that makes it invulnerable to light weapons fire for 5 seconds (essentially it ignores damage from minions, either by directly ignoring it or just having a damage reduction applied that overcomes minion weapons) and then causes all minions to start attacking it so long as it's visible.
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but farming small camps is better for grinding xp.