Simplification of unlock system = bad, here's why

[Will]

To clarify my subject matter, I am talking about how all items (storage space, tank unlocks, augments, minerals, etc.) were all limited to being level 1 upon drop, making the only way to unlock a new storage space slot or a new tank or upgrade augments by farming 100s upon 100s of level 1 items. This simplification has made the game too linear and predictable and less fun than before.

Randomness in games is something that is usually welcomed by the player when it comes to receiving items as it makes getting a rare item or extremely valued item exhilarating and increases playback value as a result. Before the simplification of the unlock system, getting a level 17 tank unlock from a wall or from leveling up a town was the best feeling in the world. It made you want to play more to perhaps get insanely lucky again, negating all the frustrating times when you had killed 60 walls and hadn't received anything more than a wolverine (level 12 tank unlock). Now, there is no randomness at all. It is all about the grind. Complete quests, get tanks, kill drills and walls, get level 1 storages, randomly kill enemies in a speed region, get speed augs, etc. This kind of "grind" can get boring very quickly. Without any shortcuts like a level 17 tank unlock that you could perhaps sell for 20 coins (back then) and then buy a level 16, 15, and 14 tank unlock with those coins, there is no incentive for people who don't have unconditional passion for playing this game to play it any more. I feel like the simplification of the unlock system was a step back for this game when you think about how fun it is/was. There needs to be shortcuts for newer players, in other words, there needs to be varying levels at which items can drop. I can't tell how much I would play this game if there were such a thing as level 3 tank unlocks dropping or level 8 storage spaces dropping. Some players have issues with lag and this makes playing the game impossible because they die so often without getting enough or ANY tank unlocks to re-unlock a respective tank to play with. I believe that if they play a lot, they should be rewarded for their efforts eventually with something to the tune of a level 5 tank unlock dropped from a region boss from loot that they almost died to get. There is no feeling better than running into the center of a perfect storm (zeta complex, omega complex) and retrieving loot and getting back to origin with <10 hp left.

I propose that the levels of unlocks vary to a degree based on the difficulty of the enemy. This would make the game more fun for newer players and more worth playing for any player. I'm not saying that the game should be made any easier, I'm just saying that there should be some randomness and magic added to the game, something that would make someone want to play more to experience the exhilarating feeling of receiving an insanely rare item once again.

[Crunch]

I think you bring up some good points about player psychology and how we perceive loot and drops. I tend to agree about the rather uninspired feeling I get from most loot these days, but I have a few reservations about your ideas. So, in no particular order:

• You may be assuming that the current items in the game (specifically unlocks) are good candidates for high reward/rarity drops.
- One reason the current system replaced the old one, has to do with the eventual devaluation of unlocks in the proposed/preexisting system. We may have felt great getting an 18 tank drop at one time, but the longer we played, the more meaningless those types of drops became. You know what's worse than loads of lvl 1 tank drops, IMO? Knowing I just got a 1/1000 or 1/10000 drop, and that it's completely worthless.

• You may be assuming that new items types can't do exactly what you're proposing, and do it better than unlocks.
- Rob and Tim are still actively inventing new items for tanks. We can honestly afford to be patient and see how the new mechanics affect our view of the game, rather than insist on returning to an old, flawed in its own right, loot system.

• It seems like you're assuming that coins are important and that the current system/economy undermine a new player's experience.
- I would argue that coins have very limited application and that new players are not at all disadvantaged in the current market. I know several people who used to pay upwards of 5 coins for a mod *cough cough*. Most mods can be acquired for less than 0.5 now, many for 0.3 or fewer.

• You seem to be saying that tank unlocks are too rare.
- I would definitely disagree on that point. Teaming up and staying in level appropriate regions is a surefire way to learn the game and unlock new tanks. If players are dying faster than they can pick up unlocks, then they're still too new to really appreciate an upper level tank, anyway. Tank unlocks are cheap, and getting cheaper. That should tell you something about their rarity.

So, now some things I agree with:

• Loot "tiers" or rarity should be more apparent. Don't underestimate/downplay the power of the loot high.
- Atm, it never feels like I get a lucky drop. I don't mean that in a jaded gamer sort of way, I just mean that most loot is pretty common, atleast in low level doses. The few items which are not, are pretty obscure (yellow tiles, for example) and have limited application and appeal. Most of the things I currently want, I can get, albeit 1 at-a-time.

• There could stand to be more incentive to "dive" for loot before it vanishes.
- You bring up a good point about feeling thrilled after snatching loot from certain death. I am a fan of this. However, in the current build, there is simply nothing, in any drop table, worth losing half my augs for. It's as cut and dry as that. If I think I might die going after a drop, I'll just route through Origin and look for my next opportunity. I wouldn't mind dying more if the price was right.

• The Grid is currently about the grind.
- A tandem point to those above, but worth mentioning all the same. At some point it would be nice to introduce methods for acquiring multiple levels of loot at once, as well as killing off relatively large sections of enemies at once. Admittedly, I don't have a concept for the system behind this type of multiplier, but it sure would be nice to reduce an hour of lawn mowing to roughly 15-20 minutes, *if* certain strategies or methods were utilized. Chain reactions, powerups, strategic isolation of enemies, etc could lead to interesting loot rewards and thoughtful play.

Cheers, Will

[rob]

I really appreciate this discussion. We've made a lot of changes to the loot system recently and the feedback is really good to get.

High-level drops aren't going to come back; we had it that way for a very long time and we've decided we like the current setup better. One reason is that in the old days, level 1 drops were pure trash; they had no buy offer price and nobody wanted them at all. In the current scheme, all drops are useful, if for no other reason than they have a liquidate price now.

We can make rare drops, but they won't be high level. Instead, they'll be items that just don't drop very often. Imagine a super-thick extra shield item, or an extra gun you can add to your tank, that only drops from one of every ten region bosses.

Crunch, I agree with you that loot bags are not very compelling right now, as most of the loot has migrated into the rewards for completing map objectives. On the other hand, I don't want to encourage random, repetitive lawn-movering of fortresses to get loot. Perhaps bigger actual loot-bag rewards should go onto dungeon bosses, subcommanders, or region bosses?

[Deleted]

Can loot diamonds be changed so that the colours actually correspond to something (e.g. a certain amount of exp, a tank, a coin, etc.)?

[Crunch]

Feb 18, 2015 14:02:08 GMT -5 rob said:

Crunch, I agree with you that loot bags are not very compelling right now, as most of the loot has migrated into the rewards for completing map objectives. On the other hand, I don't want to encourage random, repetitive lawn-movering of fortresses to get loot. Perhaps bigger actual loot-bag rewards should go onto dungeon bosses, subcommanders, or region bosses?

I've been thinking about this question a lot, and I believe the answer may not be straight forward. It's really going to depend on Grid12's core loop. Tbh, I'm not completely sure I know what that is, at the moment. Some things I'm wondering about:
• What are (should be) players doing most often and why?
• What are (should be) the most meaningful engagements to players? Why should they return to the game?
• Is Grid primarily about clearing regions or is that directive shifting toward something else?
• What keeps players engaged, regardless of benefits? And what do players avoid, even with excellent rewards? 

It may be a question of balancing the "carrot and the stick", i.e. rewards and punishments. But, I will say that I don't think that buffing loot rewards, alone, will be enough.

An example of what I mean:
War materiel and wall rewards were buffed quite a bit recently. Also, the materiel spawn rate was raised a bit. However, taking a quick look at the current map will reveal multiple maze regions which are not being plundered. But, it's certainly not because the rewards are poor. My hunch is that maze regions tend to be a bit boring and tedious, especially in small groups or solo. So, even though it may yield better rewards, more quickly, than most activities in the game, I tend to avoid clearing maze regions. And the map implies that many players feel the same.

**However**

Breaking into and disabling maze regions is excellent fun. And it's interesting to note that debuffing/scouting a maze will often take priority over more profitable activities. Fresh maze regions simply don't last very long, but I suspect that it has little to do with rewards. They're great for scouting XP, door XP, and good for prisms, but I believe that they benefit mostly from good pacing, engaging gameplay, and an inherent narrative. Cheating through walls is an interesting/fun emergent mechanic which, amazingly, seems to be self balancing (imo). Exterminators are a flexible, well designed enemy and Excluders benefit from an excellent damage/ttk ratio. Really, it's the cleanup process, arguably the part with the best rewards, which players seem to avoid. So, carrot (loot) meet stick (boredom).

TL;DR
I think that trying to find mechanics and engagements, which are enjoyable in their own right, would go a long way toward making loot rewards feel balanced. 

[Will]

Feb 20, 2015 5:46:16 GMT -5 Crunch said:

Feb 18, 2015 14:02:08 GMT -5 rob said:

Crunch, I agree with you that loot bags are not very compelling right now, as most of the loot has migrated into the rewards for completing map objectives. On the other hand, I don't want to encourage random, repetitive lawn-movering of fortresses to get loot. Perhaps bigger actual loot-bag rewards should go onto dungeon bosses, subcommanders, or region bosses?

I've been thinking about this question a lot, and I believe the answer may not be straight forward. It's really going to depend on Grid12's core loop. Tbh, I'm not completely sure I know what that is, at the moment. Some things I'm wondering about:
• What are (should be) players doing most often and why?
• What are (should be) the most meaningful engagements to players? Why should they return to the game?

To answer the question of "Why should they return to the game?", I would say what makes people play a game is by having a set goal. In Rotmg, you could farm items, sell them for pots, max your character, farm, gain wealth, buy items, acquire fame. I always found myself playing Romtg with one of those goals. But here's the difference: Stat Poitions were consumable, while there are no consumables that can be acquired in mass that exist in this game. Shields, Powerups, possibly extra guns, are all available, but their access is limited because it is hard to find enemies that drop these items. Unless you do, you can't acquire these items like you could in Rotmg by farming up a bunch of stat pots and then trading them. There needs to be integration of some kind of trade system.

[rob]

This discussion is great. Keep it coming!

I'd like to address the trading issue. The plan is to use the item marketplace for trades, rather than person-to-person shout-in-the-nexus type trading. The idea is that you can farm up any type of item and sell it on the open market, yielding coins, which you can then use to buy the items you can't get to drop. It's not efficient now because we don't have many players, but I expect it to work much better when more people are playing.

I also agree that it's not easy to deliberately hunt for specific types of items right now. Loot is too random and unpredictable. That's something we plan to work on.

[quicklite]

I suppose if I were to give my two cents about loot, my biggest complaint about loot being unattractive in such a way that makes loot bags kinda dull is that I think that rare loot needs to, well, stand out more. Although I think the new system of loot is far better, the old system of loot in grid allowed for a natural good visual and gameplay related feel by tank unlocks. If you managed to get a minatour, cutlass, or tbolt, you'd play far differently, and also look a lot different from other players simply by virtue of being an entirely different tank. If we look at the current rare items, mods and shields, I just don't feel as much of a spark in them. I managed to grind up a level 4 hornet mod (took ages >_<) and went with the rate of fire buff. Mind you, the buff is definitely substantial, and I noticed the power increase, but the problem was that the power increase never really went beyond 'noticeable'. Unless I shoot right next to another unmodded hornet, you can't really tell I'm modded at all, and the modded hornet just feels exactly the same as it was before. Given how hard it is to find, make and meld up 16 individual hornet mods, the difference feels like it could be seriously underwhelming to newcomers. Of course, you could say that this will change with shield, gun, and trigger upgrades, but that leads me to my second concern. Once these massive buffs (new guns and triggers) get implemented, how will they be implemented in a way that keeps progression horizontal while keeping the upgrades themselves worth pursuing? If a gun upgrade really adds another, legitimate gun to a tank, doubling its damage output, it would feel great to use! But at the same time, people without a gun upgrade would become about half as powerful, and therefore much less relevant in harder content. But if the gun was made weak so that owners didn't become too powerful, then the gun simply wouldn't feel fun and worthwhile to unlock anymore.

That's mostly my concern for the current state of mods. I suppose a quick fix would be giving tanks debuffs along with the improvements, so that the mods balance themselves while changing how the tank plays. But it might be hard to implement with things as straightforward as extra triggers and guns. What do you all think?

[rob]

My current feelings on progression are that a tricked-out tank should be about twice, maybe three times, as good as a stock tank. This is different from the way pretty much every RPG works, where a maxed character is literally thousands of times better than a new one. I don't want it to be a ludicrous notion for non-maxed people to venture into difficult areas. Solo, yes, you should die immediately. But, with enough gaming skill and a bunch of competent teammates with a good mix of healing and offense, I think it should be possible for tanks with no mods or augments to survive in hard areas. That is to say, I don't want people separated from their friends such that the only hope of getting to play together is a soul-crushing catch-up grind.

As for upgrades changing qualitative feel instead of just increasing numbers, I agree that mods, augs, prisms, implants, etc are pretty pathetic on that axis. Extra shields can change up your playstyle, but they are invisible to other players. The 5th trigger project that Tim is currently working on should help, as others will see (for example) missiles coming from a Silver and know that something cool is going on. Likewise, we plan to add extra installable guns. I think it's possible to balance the total power output from these upgrades such that the 2x-3x rule is still followed -- mainly by having longer cooldowns on the extra items. And I'd really prefer that the add-ons not overshadow the essence of what makes (say) a Cutlass different from a Hornet or a Hurricane.

As you said, the main way to differentiate yourself from other players is to use a different tank. Currently they go up to level 5, but we just picked that number some months ago without any data. Should the rarest tanks be level 6, 7 or 8? Such expensive tanks could be buffed even more, letting each player look as his/her coin stash and decide whether risk a big tank to be powerful or play it safe with a less awesome tank. Don't drive what you can't afford to lose...

To sum it all up: we are making this up as we go along, and we really appreciate the feedback!

[dabeastlybro]

Feb 23, 2015 11:01:01 GMT -5 rob said:

My current feelings on progression are that a tricked-out tank should be about twice, maybe three times, as good as a stock tank. This is different from the way pretty much every RPG works, where a maxed character is literally thousands of times better than a new one. I don't want it to be a ludicrous notion for non-maxed people to venture into difficult areas. Solo, yes, you should die immediately. But, with enough gaming skill and a bunch of competent teammates with a good mix of healing and offense, I think it should be possible for tanks with no mods or augments to survive in hard areas. That is to say, I don't want people separated from their friends such that the only hope of getting to play together is a soul-crushing catch-up grind.

As for upgrades changing qualitative feel instead of just increasing numbers, I agree that mods, augs, prisms, implants, etc are pretty pathetic on that axis. Extra shields can change up your playstyle, but they are invisible to other players. The 5th trigger project that Tim is currently working on should help, as others will see (for example) missiles coming from a Silver and know that something cool is going on. Likewise, we plan to add extra installable guns. I think it's possible to balance the total power output from these upgrades such that the 2x-3x rule is still followed -- mainly by having longer cooldowns on the extra items. And I'd really prefer that the add-ons not overshadow the essence of what makes (say) a Cutlass different from a Hornet or a Hurricane.

As you said, the main way to differentiate yourself from other players is to use a different tank. Currently they go up to level 5, but we just picked that number some months ago without any data. Should the rarest tanks be level 6, 7 or 8? Such expensive tanks could be buffed even more, letting each player look as his/her coin stash and decide whether risk a big tank to be powerful or play it safe with a less awesome tank. Don't drive what you can't afford to lose...

To sum it all up: we are making this up as we go along, and we really appreciate the feedback!

Sorry for long quote, are all tanks going to have a 5th trigger?

[rob]

It's an installable item. You get it as loot or buy it from the market, meld it up and install it on your tank.

[dabeastlybro]

Feb 23, 2015 12:17:23 GMT -5 rob said:

It's an installable item. You get it as loot or buy it from the market, meld it up and install it on your tank.

Oh interesting! I liek the idea!

[Will]

Feb 23, 2015 11:01:01 GMT -5 rob said:

My current feelings on progression are that a tricked-out tank should be about twice, maybe three times, as good as a stock tank. This is different from the way pretty much every RPG works, where a maxed character is literally thousands of times better than a new one. I don't want it to be a ludicrous notion for non-maxed people to venture into difficult areas. Solo, yes, you should die immediately. But, with enough gaming skill and a bunch of competent teammates with a good mix of healing and offense, I think it should be possible for tanks with no mods or augments to survive in hard areas. That is to say, I don't want people separated from their friends such that the only hope of getting to play together is a soul-crushing catch-up grind.

As for upgrades changing qualitative feel instead of just increasing numbers, I agree that mods, augs, prisms, implants, etc are pretty pathetic on that axis. Extra shields can change up your playstyle, but they are invisible to other players. The 5th trigger project that Tim is currently working on should help, as others will see (for example) missiles coming from a Silver and know that something cool is going on. Likewise, we plan to add extra installable guns. I think it's possible to balance the total power output from these upgrades such that the 2x-3x rule is still followed -- mainly by having longer cooldowns on the extra items. And I'd really prefer that the add-ons not overshadow the essence of what makes (say) a Cutlass different from a Hornet or a Hurricane.

As you said, the main way to differentiate yourself from other players is to use a different tank. Currently they go up to level 5, but we just picked that number some months ago without any data. Should the rarest tanks be level 6, 7 or 8? Such expensive tanks could be buffed even more, letting each player look as his/her coin stash and decide whether risk a big tank to be powerful or play it safe with a less awesome tank. Don't drive what you can't afford to lose...

To sum it all up: we are making this up as we go along, and we really appreciate the feedback!

The last paragraph saying "As you said, the main way to differentiate yourself from other players is to use a different tank. Currently they go up to level 5, but we just picked that number some months ago without any data. Should the rarest tanks be level 6, 7 or 8? Such expensive tanks could be buffed even more, letting each player look as his/her coin stash and decide whether risk a big tank to be powerful or play it safe with a less awesome tank. Don't drive what you can't afford to lose..." is something that I was kinda saying when I had that mega thread on tank balance. I was saying that no tank that is a lower level unlock should ever be better than one with a higher unlock level. At the time, the Mustang was probably the best tank in the game and it was only a level 1 tank unlock. The Mustang remains crazy good, and it's use (if you have mods on it) is favorable to using a Thunderbolt or Cutlass. In fact, I feel like the un-modded Tbolt is secretly the most underpowered clearing tank in the game considering it requires 16 tank unlocks to unlock. I mean, you could just use Valkyrie the entire time. BUT, back to my point, the issue is that you can get mods. A fully modded Valkyrie is much better than an unmodded Tbolt. I mean, there's no contest in my mind. So why would anyone buy a Tbolt when they can mod up a Valk and unlock it for 1 tank unlock vs. 16? This is the main issue I think this game will have going forwards. There is no reason at all to use these higher level tanks bar the Cutlass (the Cutlass is insanely OP). Keep in mind, the Tbolt and the Dragon fully modded are two of the best tanks in the game, but is there any incentive for newer players to use these tanks? No. This means that tank unlocks will become valueless once this game has more people playing it. Just saying.