Trapped: Can we please change storage a bit?

[tarbomb]

Discussed this in the IRC, but unfortunately I don't have any logs of the discussion (irssi's timing out on me, and all I have is mibbit...), so here's a short summary:

How about having partial items?

Essentially, if I'm trying to make a level 10 item out of 4 level 8 items, I need at least two open long-term slots right now (meld two pairs into level 9's, then meld the two level 9's into a level 10). Instead, we could have "partially crafted items" - I could meld two level 8's into a level 9, and meld a level 8 to the level 9 to create a 75% completed level 10, which I could turn into a complete level 10 with another level 8. Only fully-completed modules could be used.

In addition to reducing the number of slots needed to craft (while keeping the limited inventory to prevent hoarding), partial items allow a person to save partially-completed crafting progress using only one LTI (long term inventory, not linear time-invariant ) slot, reducing the pressure to keep playing.

Also, +1 to gingerbear's idea of increasing range of damage being an alternative way of getting a loot drop. A 30% loot range increase would be nice too.

[delsy]

hypevosa

That's an interesting scenario. Barring some lucky series of convoy runs and world drops, however, the limitations of melding would likely have forced him to reconsider his project before it could get into full swing. Working purely from level 1 items and a fully devoted long-term storage, Billy can meld an item of one level higher than slots long-term storage he has. Well-managed use of a level 2 will let him meld an item two levels higher, and so on. I think you've figured this out already.

With his 8 slots, Billy can make a 9 well enough with what he loots, or he could go for a 10 or 11 with some luck and finagling, but anything past that would be hard to accomplish. And that's not even considering the space taken by the hypothetical 12, 13 and 14, even if they were luckily dropped after Billy had melded his 12. That 15 tank might yet be in his reach, but the odds are against him without trading.

But with the exception of tanks, this isn't so bad. It will essentially tie your augmenting power to the size of your storage, which makes sense. The marathon looms when you try to rise too far above it, but why bother? Augments need only be one higher than the stat they augment. Expanding storage to keep things easy on yourself won't consume the game. Augmenting your favorite tanks will, but isn't that all right?

---

It IS bad for getting tanks though, because when there are 25 tanks, will each have its own level? Are we to assemble 23 storage spaces to craft the vaunted Scorpion (or whichever)? Even with trade to aid the melding process, that's a long time to work towards the last tank, considering that they're meant to perform at about the same level. I'd suggest dividing the 24(?) unlockable tanks into 6 or 8 "tiers", and using a tank unlock of a given level would let you pick one from the appropriate tier. More attainable than 24 levels.

Half-melding intrigues me. It can also potentially double the effective size of your longstorage. Given a "ladder" of matching item types, you can scrunch the sequence into a half of its inventory space.

1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8 ==> 2'-4'-6'-8'
Then you find the stuff to complete it:
1-3-5-7-2'-4'-6'-8' ==> 3-5-7-9

This game's true name is "Neon Space Tank Solitaire".

[hypevosa]

rob - Is it right to coerce someone into playing a game when they don't really want to or have time for it by threatening a penalty for when they don't play the very next day?

I understand the fear you have that some small number of players might try to delay the inevitable item expiration, but if they really, truly enjoy playing Grid12, they will not forsake it because a single item is about to expire. My point is that this is actually wrong, because as it stands people are literally being punished for not playing daily and that's why I have an issue with it.

What if I am forced to log off for one reason or another before liquidating stuff? What if I lose internet for multiple days? What if I want to play grid for one or two hours a day, when I want, not always at the same time?

Please. I don't care what system you choose, but just please, change it so that the storage isn't tied to real world time, or at least have it be enough that you aren't literally forced to play every day if you don't want to lose what melding you might have readied in short term storage.

Heck, I'll throw another new idea into the pot - have it so that short term storage is 7 hours, but have it so that every day the player has not logged in also counts as a single hour. Just let me play other games without whipping me, please D:

[gingerbear]

May 22, 2013 3:55:22 GMT -5 delsy said:

It IS bad for getting tanks though, because when there are 25 tanks, will each have its own level? Are we to assemble 23 storage spaces to craft the vaunted Scorpion (or whichever)? Even with trade to aid the melding process, that's a long time to work towards the last tank, considering that they're meant to perform at about the same level. I'd suggest dividing the 24(?) unlockable tanks into 6 or 8 "tiers", and using a tank unlock of a given level would let you pick one from the appropriate tier. More attainable than 24 levels.

Allow me to crosslink my suggestion here too (from the Build 50 thread):

I'm proposing the following method for tank unlocks:

1.) Make only 4 level of tanks. Each level would consist of the 4 tanks that belong to them currently (based on their VP cost)
2.) You can meld only tanks of the same level.
3.) Melding 2 tanks of the same level would allow you to select which tank you want to recieve, from the same level.
4.) Melding 4 tanks of the same level would give you a random tank of the +1 higher level.

May 22, 2013 3:55:22 GMT -5 delsy said:

This game's true name is "Neon Space Tank Solitaire".

QFT.

[tarbomb]

What if short-term storage were based on deaths, not real world time? Items in STS (can we call it "volatile storage"?) could survive one or two deaths. That way there would be no real-world pressure to get on, and you'd have as much time as you liked to clean up your inventory.

[hypevosa]

I was under the assumption that if we moved to an in game time system items would be lost on 2 deaths like now still. A system based solely on deaths would make it so that short term storage was long term storage though, and people would just nexus quickly to be safe, so I don't think that's quite viable.

[tarbomb]

How about basing it on shots fired and hits taken? Without avoiding battle completely it's impossible to delay, but it doesn't provide the real-world pressure to log on to manage inventory.

[hypevosa]

Actually, that would be a decent mechanic - every time you take hull damage your items in "volatile" storage also take some damage, once they reach 0% they're gone, and you lose 50% on deaths. They could also lose a percentage over time.

[gingerbear]

May 30, 2013 7:02:09 GMT -5 hypevosa said:

Actually, that would be a decent mechanic - every time you take hull damage your items in "volatile" storage also take some damage, once they reach 0% they're gone, and you lose 50% on deaths. They could also lose a percentage over time.

Which would - of course, would be a great f*ck up for every tank that relies on high hull values (ie hercules), and would make storage quasi-permanent for "safe players" (phantom, fury).

[tarbomb]

Make it dependent on shields too, and it'll balance them out. Also, since we're adding shots fired and hits taken, you pretty much can't kill anything without messing up your volatile storage.

[gingerbear]

May 30, 2013 11:31:51 GMT -5 tarbomb said:

Make it dependent on shields too, and it'll balance them out. Also, since we're adding shots fired and hits taken, you pretty much can't kill anything without messing up your volatile storage.

Cue to people playing with spectre / hornets with overaugmented ranges...

[tarbomb]

Here's why we need partial items storage for melding projects:



All that for a single level 13.

If we had partial items I would be able to conduct multiple melding projects at once, making LTS much more practical. Right now it's mainly a "melding workbench", the size of which limits your ability to make high-level stuff.

[Guest]

May 30, 2013 15:19:28 GMT -5 tarbomb said:

Here's why we need partial items storage for melding projects:

-

All that for a single level 13.

If we had partial items I would be able to conduct multiple melding projects at once, making LTS much more practical. Right now it's mainly a "melding workbench", the size of which limits your ability to make high-level stuff.

That's the intention. Crafting higher level items is supposed to require more space.

[hypevosa]

May 30, 2013 16:44:39 GMT -5 @0 said:

May 30, 2013 15:19:28 GMT -5 tarbomb said:

Here's why we need partial items storage for melding projects:

-

All that for a single level 13.

If we had partial items I would be able to conduct multiple melding projects at once, making LTS much more practical. Right now it's mainly a "melding workbench", the size of which limits your ability to make high-level stuff.

That's the intention. Crafting higher level items is supposed to require more space.

Maybe if players never got things they actually wanted to keep it would make sense, but the problem is mainly that if the player has any items they want to store for a long time, every item they are storing means they need to start at higher and higher meld points, it gets a little crazy and almost removes the point of long point storage - to hold on to thing, not just to act as a melding table.

[gingerbear]

Yeah, if someone is dedicated to create one (and just one) high level item, let's say a lvl 15 or so, to make it sure he has to keep about 6-7 items from the lower level, needs about 2-3 empty space for melding low levels together, which means with a storage space of 15-17, one is lucky if they are able to craft 1 or 2 things. Given the amount of tanks and the equipment needed, I already see merching will be the most efficient way of getting ahead:

1) buy 4 pieces of lvl X cheap. Meld them into lvl X+2.
2) sell X+2 for a lot more than you have bought the ingredients.
3) with the cumulating profit buy the items you actually need...

Which means the rich will get richer (monetary and tank progress), and the poor will only get money by selling stuff which could have been used for their tanks (only monetary progress). This does mean though that the poor will eventually get rich, but I'm not sure how will that affect the gaming experience ("shall I sell this lvl 10 augment for 0.1, or shall i use it?"). Having Victory Points right now is a relief since it allows you to practically ignore the first 8-10 level of augments and sell them at will, but what if VP is completely eliminated? Also, a lvl 14 upgrade is 8192 VP, something that one gathers only once or twice highest between a map reset. Fighting convoys and merching is a much viable way -> VP is basically useful to get your first 1-12 lvls going. If it's considered to be removed from the game, newcomers will have even harder time.

It might also mean that the two main aspects of the game will be Gri(n)ding for equipment and merching. Something that happened to RotMG too, although it has turned more into merching I think, and I'm not really fond of that. If the grinding part of the game becomes less appealing than just simply merching (clearing maps is already considered boring by the short-term thinkers), that might eventually lead the game to the same fate.