Trapped: Can we please change storage a bit?

[Guest]

May 31, 2013 6:18:12 GMT -5 gingerbear said:

Yeah, if someone is dedicated to create one (and just one) high level item, let's say a lvl 15 or so, to make it sure he has to keep about 6-7 items from the lower level, needs about 2-3 empty space for melding low levels together, which means with a storage space of 15-17, one is lucky if they are able to craft 1 or 2 things. Given the amount of tanks and the equipment needed, I already see merching will be the most efficient way of getting ahead:

1) buy 4 pieces of lvl X cheap. Meld them into lvl X+2.
2) sell X+2 for a lot more than you have bought the ingredients.
3) with the cumulating profit buy the items you actually need...

Which means the rich will get richer (monetary and tank progress), and the poor will only get money by selling stuff which could have been used for their tanks (only monetary progress). This does mean though that the poor will eventually get rich, but I'm not sure how will that affect the gaming experience ("shall I sell this lvl 10 augment for 0.1, or shall i use it?"). Having Victory Points right now is a relief since it allows you to practically ignore the first 8-10 level of augments and sell them at will, but what if VP is completely eliminated? Also, a lvl 14 upgrade is 8192 VP, something that one gathers only once or twice highest between a map reset. Fighting convoys and merching is a much viable way -> VP is basically useful to get your first 1-12 lvls going. If it's considered to be removed from the game, newcomers will have even harder time.

It might also mean that the two main aspects of the game will be Gri(n)ding for equipment and merching. Something that happened to RotMG too, although it has turned more into merching I think, and I'm not really fond of that. If the grinding part of the game becomes less appealing than just simply merching (clearing maps is already considered boring by the short-term thinkers), that might eventually lead the game to the same fate.

I can definitely see ''high levels'' essentially paying the lower crowd to meld things for them. This is natural, and benefits both parties.

As for the rest of your post, maybe read up a bit about supply and demand. (I'm sorry if the previous sentence offends you.)

[rob]

I agree with SirNull -- there will never be enough space to meld giant items by yourself. You'll need to buy items, meld them, and re-sell the products. Everyone will do this, all the time, profiting along the way because a level N+1 item is more valuable than 2 level N items. Eventually somebody at the top will make the level 17, 18, 19 items, and he/she will use the items or sell them at a profit.

This actually resembles real economies. No single person could ever make an iPhone by himself. Last year, your iPhone was literally scattered all over the world as various kinds of rocks and dirt. Thousands of people all over the world gathered the dirt, refined it in various ways, formed it into chunks of the refined products, transported it around the globe, sliced up the chunks, created components, shipped them some more, assembled the components, etc. Ownership of the pieces changed many times. After each step, the materials were more valuable than before. At each ownership change, the new owner paid the old owner and the government took a cut. Nobody would do any of this hard work if they weren't profiting.The parallels to Grid12 are both deep and intentional.

[gingerbear]

Makes sense.

What I was trying to say is that chosing between "shall I have this item" or "shall I sell this item" becomes a harder and harder question as the level goes up, as obtaining said item becomes increasingly difficult (either grind or a lot more coins). Since there is no cap on the items, one cannot lay back satisfied, there are no "tops", which is kind of a pain for people with maximalist attitudes (like me). In other words, to satisfy my needs to enjoy the game (getting forward by maxing tanks) I am either forced to spend increasingly more time merching (as I have to raise 2x+y money to obtain an item of an n+1 level where n costs x), or i have to keep collecting various items and then meld them. The former has no appeal to me, as I would want to play a game for the sake of playing and not merching, while the latter will be impossible due to the storage limit.

I know this would be all a moot point if the game propagates a simple "buy and sell, do not care" attitude, but that works only for casual gaming. Hardcore gamers might find the system unappealing.

Nevertheless, if there are a lot more people around (thousands) to buy and sell, and we have a vivid market, then hopefully this wont be that big of a problem. But i can see a rough way in getting there.

[hypevosa]

the issue I see is that by knowing any 2 items can be made into another item of +1 level, all the prices essentially stagnate at 2 times the previous item's price (around) and it just means that you guys get to make a shit ton on taxes. I'm all for the game making money, but I'd rather the economy be a little more dynamic. That and (as we're already seeing) the real moguls of the game will be making storage upgrades constantly, it's the only thing you'll need to make because, really, it's the one thing everyone wants since everyone needs it to be higher and higher level to meld higher and higher level gear.

[quicklite]

To be fair, hype, the only reason that's what 'everyone needs' at the moment is that there is that that's the only thing that is really worth people's time, the only thing that gives a satisfactory reward atm. Now, I'm not saying this is a bad thing. All this content is brand new, and I'd probably expect less from a closed alpha game, so in that aspect I'm fine. But what I'm trying to say is at the moment, storage is the 'only thing that matters' because nothing else is around that matters more. Augments are cool, but the actual stat boosts they give are so (understandably) minimal that the difference they make might as well be cosmetic, and because of VP, the tank unlocks are only 'useful' and worth buying when the tank prices hit 1000 VP, and it usually is a bit of a pain to try and create 1000 VP tanks compared to the profit that you'll inevitably make from them if you don't need them (very little). I'd say give it some time. Wait for some really sweet drops to show up, stuff that would seriously change tanks (without necessarily making them 'more powerful' ofc), and things will change. Sure, storages will stay completely vital, a little bit like the def pots of realm, but that won't be what 'everyone wants' anymore. Because everyone likes def pots, but doom bows are another thing entirely

[gingerbear]

Quicklite has a point, but that particular example is a bit wrong. Def pots are used as a currency in rotmg, and as the inflation has hit they are replaced by life pots, incs, etc. at higher tiers, and you can basically trade WITH just about everything and FOR everything. In Grid, all you can trade with is "coins", the quantity of which is decreasing by every trade, so you have to think well about what you want to trade for, and how often would you do it.

Also, doombow is an UT, or an "endgame" item. There is no endgame item in grid, or at least it's pretty hard to reach one: it will likely not drop (see that other post saying drop levels are capped), and crafting your way up there becomes exponentially hard.

[hypevosa]

I'm going to stick to my guns here, because I still feel my point is very valid. Storage is and will always be the only thing that genuinely will always make tons of money, and that's because it's the only thing everyone absolutely needs to progress. If a player wants to make higher level upgrades from lower level parts, what do they need? Storage space. If they need to keep an item until they can use it, but still have space for melding, what do they need? Storage space. If they want to multi task melding for a few different projects, what do they need? Storage space. If they want to (eventually) meld multiple different parts to make an awesome thing, what do they need? Storage space. If they want to merchant items, what do they need? Storage space.

There is explicitly nothing as important as storage space in this game. It's not that it's the only thing we have worth having, but it's the only thing you NEED if you are trying to constantly progress rather than depend explicitly on luck for good drops.

[quicklite]

gingerbear, that's not the aspect of def pots I was looking at. I wasn't looking at their stance as an item in the 'economy', I was looking at it as an item in the actual game. In the game, economies and whatnot aside, max def was (most of the time) step 1 to becoming a pro. Having great items are great, and what came after, but despite def pots themselves being not that valuable, def pots are a necessity for your character's functionality as a true boss/event fighter. A little like storage, while (I think) it won't be that valuable overall, it will be valuable enough (especially in mass quantities for melding purposes), and essential enough to be a vital part of the game, without being the thing that gives wealth.

And about the UTs: rob has stated (I'd quote, but I'd have trouble finding the original post) that he plans to put ultra-rare modules into the game. In my eyes, that's the same as a doom bow, just for grid.

@hype, imo, you are right. Right now, storage is exactly what you describe it to be. But that's because the alternatives (augs and unlocks) aren't really much to compare to. Augs because they (again, understandably) don't really do that much for your tank, and unlocks because there is a much easier way around them (VP). However, in a year or two, when you start getting more interesting, game-changing modules that completely rewrite your tank and how it works, people will still crave dat storage, but people's main interests will shift to getting those fabled modules that affect your tank in that really awesome way. At least, it will after they get a significant amount of storage. But since storage is only indirectly vital (though still vital), and once the direct things become, well, more direct, I'm pretty sure there will be more things with frankly more wealth.