Build 89

[Will]

Mar 7, 2014 16:08:20 GMT -5 zub said:

After one build inertia, nerfing rewards for convoy route clearing provided expected outcome, nobody clears them anymore.

Ya, Rob should make the module drop rate like 2% and the aug rate 15%

EDIT: On Grid viewer, it says "+1 %2" for drop rate of mods from Walls. +1? Pretty sure no one has even gotten a level 2 mod before
...

[Kelsoo]

The ghost tank bug is back again. I can't log into Kelsoo anymore (error already logged in), logging onto one of my alts shows Kelsoo as a revenant of the past

[Will]

Mar 7, 2014 19:08:11 GMT -5 Kelsoo said:

The ghost tank bug is back again. I can't log into Kelsoo anymore (error already logged in), logging onto one of my alts shows Kelsoo as a revenant of the past

[israphial]

Kelsoo, excellently written post, and I agree with every point, especially the buff to the Minotaur's back shield.

[Kelsoo]

Mar 6, 2014 20:22:40 GMT -5 Will said:

Ok, so I thought over the prospect of nerfing Tbolt and Guardian and buffing Spectre and Kraken.

Here's what I propose:

If the Spectre is going to be buffed, then the Hornet should too. Think about it. The Spectre has better shields with more DPS than the Hornet with the inclusion of a DPS buff, and if a DPS buff is in order then it should go like this:

Tbolt: 75 --> 70
Spectre: 75 --> 80
Hornet: 76.66 --> 85

I say this because the buff of the Spectre by any amount makes the Hornet basically pointless, and, while I agree that the Tbolt needs to be nerfed a little bit, I just think that the overall balance of the game is messed up with a Spectre DPS boost in combination w/ the Tbolt being nerfed. While Tbolt has better shields and should have worse DPS than the Spectre and Hornet, the overall balance between the "Single Cannon" Tanks is messed up when you buff the Spectre and don't buff the Hornet at the same time. I think making the Spectre have 80 DPS and maybe faster regen rates for the shields would make it very useful, or perhaps the addition of 2 AntiMinion guns that do 15 DPS each would make the Spectre more viable in combat, because the main issue really isn't so much shields but just the fact that the MainGun seemingly shoots where it pleases and where it pleases is not at the main enemy in most cases where there are walls or Drills. Designated targeting would be a cool feature for the Spectre and there must be some way to put that into the game for just the Spectre.

Now, the nerfing of the Guardian is also something I thought was needed. In reality, the Cannon on the Guardian should do 150 per shot with 2 sec CD for each shot. This would nerf the cannon significantly, decreasing the effects of CD augments but also increasing the effects of things like modules at the same time. (gun_rof,1.05) The Kraken DOESN'T need a Minion Gun boost. Believe me, it's horrifyingly efficient at the disposal of minions. But what I think it does need is a MainGun boost to around 65 or 60. This would put the Kraken on par with the likes of Paladin and Corsair for MainEnemy damage (The other two being tanks that can also heal and have similar shield functionality)


Overall, when buffing or nerfing tanks, one has to take into account tanks that serve a similar purpose, and this is my Thesis.

I agree with this on most points. As I and Ood has stated. When multiple tanks are thrown into classes you have to be sure they are all a viable choice, and just "okay" will never cut it.

What I must disagree with is only adding small damage boost to the Kraken, that is not the only thing that tank needs in any sense, the Kraken needs some extensive work, and where it goes depends on what the Kraken is supposed to be suited for.

The Corsair and Paladin are not exactly where I would place the Kraken, I would say it is in between the Hurricane and Guardian. Meant as a support tank maybe? As the Corsair and Pally are mainly convoy tanks. Although the Corsair is basically the only convoyer to hold its salt on the modern build. IMO the Pally needs a buff anyways to be suitable for battle outside of convoys which are an increasingly less focus of the game.

What the Kraken can also benefit from is to have it's triggers buffed, the first three. Or at the very least 2 and 3. And the minion DPS can be lowered to suit it, we don't want Traily 2.0

Trigger 2 is pretty useless, a good idea but your tank would be dead by the time the fires actually killed anything, buff accordingly, or make it as I believe it was Ood has stated, call the minions to be your ally

and Trigger 3? It is fine I guess, but could benefit from a more Viking like approach, maybe making it instead shoot two or three of those with bigger range and less damage as a mine would be a nice buff

[Will]

Mar 7, 2014 22:15:48 GMT -5 Kelsoo said:

Mar 6, 2014 20:22:40 GMT -5 Will said:

Ok, so I thought over the prospect of nerfing Tbolt and Guardian and buffing Spectre and Kraken.

Here's what I propose:

If the Spectre is going to be buffed, then the Hornet should too. Think about it. The Spectre has better shields with more DPS than the Hornet with the inclusion of a DPS buff, and if a DPS buff is in order then it should go like this:

Tbolt: 75 --> 70
Spectre: 75 --> 80
Hornet: 76.66 --> 85

I say this because the buff of the Spectre by any amount makes the Hornet basically pointless, and, while I agree that the Tbolt needs to be nerfed a little bit, I just think that the overall balance of the game is messed up with a Spectre DPS boost in combination w/ the Tbolt being nerfed. While Tbolt has better shields and should have worse DPS than the Spectre and Hornet, the overall balance between the "Single Cannon" Tanks is messed up when you buff the Spectre and don't buff the Hornet at the same time. I think making the Spectre have 80 DPS and maybe faster regen rates for the shields would make it very useful, or perhaps the addition of 2 AntiMinion guns that do 15 DPS each would make the Spectre more viable in combat, because the main issue really isn't so much shields but just the fact that the MainGun seemingly shoots where it pleases and where it pleases is not at the main enemy in most cases where there are walls or Drills. Designated targeting would be a cool feature for the Spectre and there must be some way to put that into the game for just the Spectre.

Now, the nerfing of the Guardian is also something I thought was needed. In reality, the Cannon on the Guardian should do 150 per shot with 2 sec CD for each shot. This would nerf the cannon significantly, decreasing the effects of CD augments but also increasing the effects of things like modules at the same time. (gun_rof,1.05) The Kraken DOESN'T need a Minion Gun boost. Believe me, it's horrifyingly efficient at the disposal of minions. But what I think it does need is a MainGun boost to around 65 or 60. This would put the Kraken on par with the likes of Paladin and Corsair for MainEnemy damage (The other two being tanks that can also heal and have similar shield functionality)


Overall, when buffing or nerfing tanks, one has to take into account tanks that serve a similar purpose, and this is my Thesis.

I agree with this on most points. As I and Ood has stated. When multiple tanks are thrown into classes you have to be sure they are all a viable choice, and just "okay" will never cut it.

What I must disagree with is only adding small damage boost to the Kraken, that is not the only thing that tank needs in any sense, the Kraken needs some extensive work, and where it goes depends on what the Kraken is supposed to be suited for.

The Corsair and Paladin are not exactly where I would place the Kraken, I would say it is in between the Hurricane and Guardian. Meant as a support tank maybe? As the Corsair and Pally are mainly convoy tanks. Although the Corsair is basically the only convoyer to hold its salt on the modern build. IMO the Pally needs a buff anyways to be suitable for battle outside of convoys which are an increasingly less focus of the game.

What the Kraken can also benefit from is to have it's triggers buffed, the first three. Or at the very least 2 and 3. And the minion DPS can be lowered to suit it, we don't want Traily 2.0

Trigger 2 is pretty useless, a good idea but your tank would be dead by the time the fires actually killed anything, buff accordingly, or make it as I believe it was Ood has stated, call the minions to be your ally

and Trigger 3? It is fine I guess, but could benefit from a more Viking like approach, maybe making it instead shoot two or three of those with bigger range and less damage as a mine would be a nice buff

The matter of the fact is this: We have no clue where Kraken fits as tank in terms of a role. The reason I put it in there w/ Pally and Corsair is because of the strong front shield (350+) and healing capability, otherwise, I don't really know. Rob can only dictate the main role of the Kraken.

[zub]

Mar 7, 2014 17:30:07 GMT -5 Will said:

Ya, Rob should make the module drop rate like 2% and the aug rate 15%

Reverting module drop rate to 3% would be better. Augments aren't really interesting loot.

Mar 7, 2014 17:30:07 GMT -5 Will said:

On Grid viewer, it says "+1 %2" for drop rate of mods from Walls. +1? Pretty sure no one has even gotten a level 2 mod before

It says 1+ for every module dropping enemy, but everybody knows higher level mods don't drop.

[delsy]

I've just put some playtime into Spectre, and I'm not sure that it especially needs a buff. It just encourages a playstyle one may find frustrating. It's good at attacking frontal targets while enemy firepower is mostly to the front and left, hitting its main shield. It's especially good at hitting the corners of enemy formations from such an angle. It's a fairly safe convoy tank. Problems come when it gets too close or gets distracted by enemies on its weak right side, which its gun happens to cover with considerable range. An overeager Spectre is easily stuck with structures bearing down on the main shield while minions pound the weak side. It's a very unusual design, in that the gun has a limited arc, and that same arc covers a side you don't want facing an enemy. All full-rotation turrets encounter this problem, but not limit-arc, as far as I'm aware.

Spectre's quirks (for me, anyway) add up to an even stranger one; the more patient you are, the less patient you have to be. Its gun has considerable range and damage that deals with minions well if you keep your distance. And unlike its Hornet cousin, its front shield lets it get in the thick of things for a time and use the blast cone, which is quite strong for its type. Spectre lies between sniper and blaster. Staying at range is safe, if a little unsatisfying, and charging in will leave you waiting for shield regen all the time. Using a bit of both and minding your placement will let you keep steady play that will match the pace of your triggers' recharge. There's little need to charge in with allies, but if you feel the need, keep some protecting your right side.

Until you've gotten some of the "trigger tanks", Spectre has the safety and damage of a re-pulching tank, if you don't like Phantom and Predator, or Hercules is too much of a pain. I don't think Spectre needs a damage buff. Its output is good enough as it is, if you don't have to run away and lick your wounds. Change the shields, if anything. Make the front shield something legendary on the Grid, and weaken the rear, perhaps. Or change trigger 4 into something like...

Chirality Transformation: Rotates the Spectre through four dimensions, reversing its equipment configuration and recharging its frontal shield.

"My name is Spinnygo Spectroya. I am not left handed. Your head asplode." There's already precedent for transforming tanks in the Thunderbolt, but if two modes would burden the server, perhaps it could be an overdrive that expires after a time? Them's my .000000002 coins.

Edit: I meant that weapon and shields would be mirrored, but switching only the gun would be cool too.

[tarbomb]

Delsy: I agree that spectre is fairly effective while in battle as is. The problem is that its shield regeneration is much too slow (ten times longer than a thunderbolt's!) which means that it cannot be a part of the battle for as long as most other tanks, which makes using it mostly an exercise in frustration.

[delsy]

Hunting convoys today in groups of 3-4, I could tank a few hits and back off to keep up the attack in a good rhythm if others did the same. It takes more finagling to keep the turret lined up when doing walls, but it can be done. Endurance is a bother, of course, which is the reason behind my trigger suggestion. It's the usual emergency recovery, plus the utility of getting a shield and/or gun into position.

[Will]

Okay, made some calculations for the max DPS of Tbolt and Spectre when mods are maxed out on each tank

Tbolt, with level 10 CD aug, can do a max of 262 DPS (If its damage is nerfed to 65)
Spectre, with level 10 CD aug, can do a max of 303 DPS

Think nerfing the damage to 65 on the Tbolt is fair enough, Spectre will do more damage per sec and Hornet can do a WHOLE lot more.

[Ood]

Kelsoo Will
A few things since you both seem to be referencing my rather outdated points.

I haven't played nor seen the Tbolt in action, so I've no idea where it fits in with spectre/hornet.
In terms of my perspective of the Hornet and Spectre, nothing needs to change much. The hornet does more dps in the long run than the Spectre, but is significantly less durable. My only peeve has been (and probably always will be) that the two have the same base range. In my opinion the Spectre should have slightly less (0.25 or so). If the Tbolt is generally used as a sniper, I'd assume it is (or should be) slightly less effective than either the Hornet or the Spectre, since it is capable of more than sniping.

In other regards:
I see the Pally is the Mk2 version of the Hurricane.
Corsair's tree is: Corsair>Predator>Minotaur

Kraken doesn't fit well anywhere but probably could best be described as Hercules Mk2.
Last time I played it, Kraken didn't need a buff... it needs its Trigger 2 changed to 'confuse', which temporarily allies enemy minions.

[Will]

Mar 11, 2014 16:49:09 GMT -5 Ood said:

Kelsoo Will
A few things since you both seem to be referencing my rather outdated points.

I haven't played nor seen the Tbolt in action, so I've no idea where it fits in with spectre/hornet.
In terms of my perspective of the Hornet and Spectre, nothing needs to change much. The hornet does more dps in the long run than the Spectre, but is significantly less durable. My only peeve has been (and probably always will be) that the two have the same base range. In my opinion the Spectre should have slightly less (0.25 or so). If the Tbolt is generally used as a sniper, I'd assume it is (or should be) slightly less effective than either the Hornet or the Spectre, since it is capable of more than sniping.

In other regards:
I see the Pally is the Mk2 version of the Hurricane.
Corsair's tree is: Corsair>Predator>Minotaur

Kraken doesn't fit well anywhere but probably could best be described as Hercules Mk2.
Last time I played it, Kraken didn't need a buff... it needs its Trigger 2 changed to 'confuse', which temporarily allies enemy minions.

Ahhh well... The reason I said Kraken fits in with Corsair and Paladin is because it is a voy tank. Mino and Predator are a rare sight when chasing down a convoy.

[Ood]

Either the Kraken has vastly changed, or I'm missing something... it's not a convoy tank. At best it can kill 1 subcommander (if those still exist) well and a few minion heavy structures. It's DPS is nowhere near high enough to be useful as a damager in convoy hunting, and it's triggers provide very little support.

Edit:
Also, your dps calculations are incorrect, cooldown works differently than you are assuming, but that's okay.