An Insane idea that may make this game more fun

[Will]

I am proposing a complete overhaul of the module system.

Here's what I propose:

Every unit in the game (by 'unit' I mean anything that needs to cleared for the region to spawn a region boss) with 1500 hp or more should drop modules at the following rates:

Level 1 Modules: 8%
Level 2 Modules: 4%
Level 3 Modules: 1%

While it is not possible for ANYTHING to drop a module higher than level 1, this idea will just assume that it is. (Perhaps you could make it drop 2 or 4 of the same module at once in substitution for the level 2 or 3 and then allow us to decide whether we meld or sell the modules)

BUT, because modules would be easier to get, they must be easier to lose.

You see, the main issue with this game is that progress is slow but also permanent, quite possibly one of the most boring combinations that gaming has to offer.

I'm suggesting that you make progress faster but also easier to lose.

You know how prisms lose a level after you die? Perhaps modules could do the same, but maybe every 4-5 deaths. This number could be displayed on the modules, so let's say you die 2 times, it could say 2/4 deaths for degradation of module by 1 level.

This means that once you get a level 7 module, a degradation of said module would be catastrophic, making it a HUGE risk when running around the grid with a 'maxed tank'. (+10 of everything) This means that, while maxing a tank may make your tank almost as strong as it can be (augments), it also makes dying with your tank the costliest.

I think that the implementation of my idea/concept into the game would change the entire atmosphere of the game and would make it a lot more enjoyable and thrilling.

I know that this is a radical idea, but we are in closed Alpha testing and perhaps trying something new like this would attract more people and thus more testers which means more ideas for the game + more bug finders and flaw exploiters. I'm just trying to help the creation of a better game with this idea and I'm 100% serious about this idea as well.

Feel free to criticize my idea, I love feedback

[Kelsoo]

I don't know if another progression system would be such a great idea with the state the game is currently in. Especially adding in a progression system with a harder death penalty ala Realm, the game is more focused on letting newer players jump in without feeling too overwhelmed that "pros" will not want to play with them, and so that they can play with the "pros". Personally I don't think we need even more ways to make the game easier.

In my opinion this would make soloing even easier and make it so you don't care about co-op even more. Just prisms alone make the game a cakewalk, and still needs endgame content, or just hard content in general, besides the dungeons. Having to make even harder content means you have newer players needing to invest even more of their time to ever get there. We should be focusing on gameplay and learning strategies to make the game easier, not making your tank 'that' more invincible.

[Will]

Jul 27, 2014 15:37:53 GMT -5 Kelsoo said:

I don't know if another progression system would be such a great idea with the state the game is currently in. Especially adding in a progression system with a harder death penalty ala Realm, the game is more focused on letting newer players jump in without feeling too overwhelmed that "pros" will not want to play with them, and so that they can play with the "pros". Personally I don't think we need even more ways to make the game easier.

In my opinion this would make soloing even easier and make it so you don't care about co-op even more. Just prisms alone make the game a cakewalk, and still needs endgame content, or just hard content in general, besides the dungeons. Having to make even harder content means you have newer players needing to invest even more of their time to ever get there. We should be focusing on gameplay and learning strategies to make the game easier, not making your tank 'that' more invincible.

But Kelsoo I don't think you understand what I'm trying to do here. I'm trying to make the game HARDER by making there be a penalty for dying. Implementing this system would increase the learning curve of this game significantly and would most likely hook newer players into the game. Also, all players get the same loot so it would be to the advantage of everyone to group up and kill things so that they can get modules faster via coin exchange in the market. (One player would buy up all the modules that the other players got from a drop) This would mean that it would be easier for newer players to get coins and modules and it would make the game more exciting. While the current content isn't hard when you have 5-6 people teaming up, it is hard with only 2-3 people in a group and the possibility of dying is still high when there are such things as butchers in the game. Implementing my system would make dying COSTLY rather than ANNOYING and would encourage people to go back out and re-earn those modules rather than stop playing because the amount of progress made from playing in an hour is so minimal.

I also understand what you're saying about the game though in the sense that really you can 5-6 people as I previously mentioned and just steamroll entire regions in a matter of 1-2 hours. Perhaps enemies could get their HP + Damage buffed based on the amount of people in a given region as well as the amount of baseline HP for modules to drop? (assuming my system is in place )

Really I don't intend to make the game easier, I intend to make tanks easier to upgrade but also easier to downgrade. I want to have a nice balance between the two.

[Justin]

Rob has talked about plans to change modules from forcing players to 're-roll' stats through trade to get what they want, to adding a way to choose what stats you want to increase. (now that i've mentioned and thought about this, i've forgotten the reason for not allowing modules to be unmelded). Depending on how this is implemented (will 4 modules still exist?) this idea may not be possible.

Anyway, let's ignore that minor point for now, as it isn't in the game yet nor is it guaranteed.

How does this work with multiple module slots? If you have four modules at 0/4 degradation levels, and then you die once, will all of them go to 1/4 degradation? That would seem pretty drastic, making this game have horrible drawbacks (especially since unexpected death, like teleporting to an insta-death situatuion, exists) with not much reward. On a similar note, which module stat would get the decrease (if there are two on the specific module)?

Oh, and you seem to be taking things with 'value' in mind rather than 'importance' again (protomodules being the other time I can recall you saying rare items are worth buying simply because they're rare).

Losing a single point on your tank's module stats wouldn't be a noticeable decrease (unless you're a solo player). Losing 4 (for each module slot) may be a lot worse, but still not terrible because you still have augments. The biggest fall is always with the loss of prisms in terms of necessity. The only problem with losing modules is that they're rarer as they get into higher levels. Result: Anger over losing bragging rights and internet points.

Now I will also ignore the fact that modules, individually, have almost no visible affect and are only desired because of rarity.

If implementing your idea would make dying catastrophic for specific highly modded tanks, how would that encourage people to play them more? Modules are the highest-tier item in the game in terms of rarity. They're the best drop you could get from region bosses (storage space is... nice but not necessary after a certain point. Tank unlocks are irrelevant if you've unlocked them all). Usually people seek rare items in games to try and help them complete harder content (either through the item actually being important, or simply gaining a lot of wealth through that item), but modules hardly help with that. You can easily lose way more than you can gain. Modules individually don't affect tanks too much. If you get a rare module, I guess you can sell it and buy augments in the market, and that would be the hope driving weaker players forward.

That... sounds a lot like realm.

On a side note, I don't actually think big learning curves are a good thing.

edit: Most of what I've said is just what I think would be a result, mixed in with what may possibly be me misunderstanding things, or you not completely explaining full implementation and myself coming up with scenarios of how it would work with full implementation and probably having a different vision. So, please try to contradict me or just blatantly point out flaws in my statements.

[Ood]

Let's not make the game any easier, eh?

Progress is good, but progress for the sake of progress can be a bit like playing an 'idle' game.

It's still my opinion that the game is boring (regardless of any sort of progress bar you put on the game {I haven't unlocked all tanks}). This doesn't change the base of the game, it just further penalizes death.

The game as it is is boring. Once that changes I might play some more.

[Will]

Jul 29, 2014 3:32:09 GMT -5 Justin said:

Rob has talked about plans to change modules from forcing players to 're-roll' stats through trade to get what they want, to adding a way to choose what stats you want to increase. (now that i've mentioned and thought about this, i've forgotten the reason for not allowing modules to be unmelded). Depending on how this is implemented (will 4 modules still exist?) this idea may not be possible.

Anyway, let's ignore that minor point for now, as it isn't in the game yet nor is it guaranteed.

How does this work with multiple module slots? If you have four modules at 0/4 degradation levels, and then you die once, will all of them go to 1/4 degradation? That would seem pretty drastic, making this game have horrible drawbacks (especially since unexpected death, like teleporting to an insta-death situatuion, exists) with not much reward. On a similar note, which module stat would get the decrease (if there are two on the specific module)?

Oh, and you seem to be taking things with 'value' in mind rather than 'importance' again (protomodules being the other time I can recall you saying rare items are worth buying simply because they're rare).

Losing a single point on your tank's module stats wouldn't be a noticeable decrease (unless you're a solo player). Losing 4 (for each module slot) may be a lot worse, but still not terrible because you still have augments. The biggest fall is always with the loss of prisms in terms of necessity. The only problem with losing modules is that they're rarer as they get into higher levels. Result: Anger over losing bragging rights and internet points.

Now I will also ignore the fact that modules, individually, have almost no visible affect and are only desired because of rarity.

If implementing your idea would make dying catastrophic for specific highly modded tanks, how would that encourage people to play them more? Modules are the highest-tier item in the game in terms of rarity. They're the best drop you could get from region bosses (storage space is... nice but not necessary after a certain point. Tank unlocks are irrelevant if you've unlocked them all). Usually people seek rare items in games to try and help them complete harder content (either through the item actually being important, or simply gaining a lot of wealth through that item), but modules hardly help with that. You can easily lose way more than you can gain. Modules individually don't affect tanks too much. If you get a rare module, I guess you can sell it and buy augments in the market, and that would be the hope driving weaker players forward.

That... sounds a lot like realm.

On a side note, I don't actually think big learning curves are a good thing.

edit: Most of what I've said is just what I think would be a result, mixed in with what may possibly be me misunderstanding things, or you not completely explaining full implementation and myself coming up with scenarios of how it would work with full implementation and probably having a different vision. So, please try to contradict me or just blatantly point out flaws in my statements.

"Now I will also ignore the fact that modules, individually, have almost no visible affect and are only desired because of rarity."

Wait, is this sarcasm Justin? Modules have a HUGE effect on the performance of a tank. I think the reason you might say something like this is because you don't check tank stats. Some tanks, when fully modded, receive an increase in DPS by nearly double their base amount with modules. For example, the Spectre has 60 base damage. With +10 for gun damage, it gets 98 base damage, a huge difference. Cutlass's central gun base damage goes from 70 a shot to 140 a shot with +10 central gun damage modules.

I think the main reason there's a disconnect here Justin is because you don't think modules are really that helpful. I can tell you that they make a HUGE difference in the performance of your tank. Prisms have less of an effect on tanks in some areas than modules do.

Yes, protomodules are useless, but modules for tanks are nearly essential compared to augs which are just a nice add-on.

Also, all modules would receive degradation from a death, and the stat that would decrease would most likely have to be random.

Perhaps there could be a way to 'restore' modules? Like, with the right kind of minerals you could craft something that gets rid of 1 death from the degradation counter?

But Justin I still don't understand how you think modules aren't very useful

[Will]

Jul 29, 2014 9:58:32 GMT -5 Ood said:

Let's not make the game any easier, eh?

Progress is good, but progress for the sake of progress can be a bit like playing an 'idle' game.

It's still my opinion that the game is boring (regardless of any sort of progress bar you put on the game {I haven't unlocked all tanks}). This doesn't change the base of the game, it just further penalizes death.

The game as it is is boring. Once that changes I might play some more.

Well, I'm not really trying to make the game easier, and the only way to know if this would make the game easier is by testing it.

[Justin]

Jul 29, 2014 12:41:12 GMT -5 Will said:

"Now I will also ignore the fact that modules, individually, have almost no visible affect and are only desired because of rarity."

Wait, is this sarcasm Justin? Modules have a HUGE effect on the performance of a tank. I think the reason you might say something like this is because you don't check tank stats. Some tanks, when fully modded, receive an increase in DPS by nearly double their base amount with modules. For example, the Spectre has 60 base damage. With +10 for gun damage, it gets 98 base damage, a huge difference. Cutlass's central gun base damage goes from 70 a shot to 140 a shot with +10 central gun damage modules.

I think the main reason there's a disconnect here Justin is because you don't think modules are really that helpful. I can tell you that they make a HUGE difference in the performance of your tank. Prisms have less of an effect on tanks in some areas than modules do.

Yes, protomodules are useless, but modules for tanks are nearly essential compared to augs which are just a nice add-on.

Also, all modules would receive degradation from a death, and the stat that would decrease would most likely have to be random.

Perhaps there could be a way to 'restore' modules? Like, with the right kind of minerals you could craft something that gets rid of 1 death from the degradation counter?

But Justin I still don't understand how you think modules aren't very useful

Alright my distaste for modules comes from:

The rarity of getting a module you want for your tank

and

The difficulty in keeping all the modules you want with limited storage

Trapped taking advantage of my innocence/naivety and stealing my level 5 trailblazer mod that I spent quite a few coins getting while I was re-rolling it through alt-trade doesn't help that either. So I tried convincing myself that I didn't really lose much by making myself believe modules aren't useful.

Anyway, you suggested making module drops a lot more common and I completely ignored that and only thought of module drops as they are now. Ignorance is bliss.

What's the goal though? What draws you in to keep playing when you've unlocked everything? Adding module-risk doesn't seem like enough to me.

(I think I might have to leave these forums. As a result of not playing the game for the passed few builds, a lot of what I say may very well be obsolete. Also, the game is heading toward more group-interaction with less all-interaction, and since I'm terrible at communicating with others that's going to lead to my ultimate demise).

[rob]

Here's a crazy idea:

Require that tanks be re-unlocked after death (you'd keep the installed modules, xp, augments, etc). Obviously we'd need to change drop rates and unlocks levels a lot. For example, we could drop only level 1 tank unlocks, and have the most expensive tank be a level 6 or 8 or so. Silver never needs to be unlocked.

I like the idea of degrading modules at death (I think prism decay is working really well), but the partial "module hit points" thing seems too complicated. How can we increase the death penalty in a more simple way?

[Will]

Jul 29, 2014 15:08:21 GMT -5 rob said:

Here's a crazy idea:

Require that tanks be re-unlocked after death (you'd keep the installed modules, xp, augments, etc). Obviously we'd need to change drop rates and unlocks levels a lot. For example, we could drop only level 1 tank unlocks, and have the most expensive tank be a level 6 or 8 or so. Silver never needs to be unlocked.

I like the idea of degrading modules at death (I think prism decay is working really well), but the partial "module hit points" thing seems too complicated. How can we increase the death penalty in a more simple way?

Maybe, upon death, a random module becomes 'broken' (disabled) and would need repair in order for the module to function again. If the module isn't repaired within 24 hours, the module would decay a level and again become usable. Perhaps there could be specific structures that can be crafted from minerals that repair a module.

Also, to perhaps expand this idea into the whole tank penalty concept, the tank could also be 'broken' and could perhaps be repaired by crafting a certain item or something of that nature. A tank would receive a damage debuff or a movement debuff or something like that until it is repaired. This would make teaming up and getting to minerals extremely important. This would also make minerals a whole lot more important.

[Ood]

Jul 29, 2014 15:08:21 GMT -5 rob said:

Here's a crazy idea:

Require that tanks be re-unlocked after death (you'd keep the installed modules, xp, augments, etc). Obviously we'd need to change drop rates and unlocks levels a lot. For example, we could drop only level 1 tank unlocks, and have the most expensive tank be a level 6 or 8 or so. Silver never needs to be unlocked.

I like the idea of degrading modules at death (I think prism decay is working really well), but the partial "module hit points" thing seems too complicated. How can we increase the death penalty in a more simple way?

Increase death penalty:

Module degrade on death.
Augment degrade on death.
Prism degrade on death.
Tank loss on death.
Item loss on death.

These are the only available options as I see it. Nothing else is player progress related. Once you make augments or modules more common because of death degrade though, you end up with a situation like Realm of the Mad God with 8/8 or what have you.

(none of this makes playing the game any more fun, just changes one grind of boring content to a grind of other boring content)

Here's a crazy idea:

Make some enemies that interact.

[Justin]

Jul 29, 2014 15:08:21 GMT -5 rob said:

Here's a crazy idea:

Require that tanks be re-unlocked after death (you'd keep the installed modules, xp, augments, etc). Obviously we'd need to change drop rates and unlocks levels a lot. For example, we could drop only level 1 tank unlocks, and have the most expensive tank be a level 6 or 8 or so. Silver never needs to be unlocked.

I like the idea of degrading modules at death (I think prism decay is working really well), but the partial "module hit points" thing seems too complicated. How can we increase the death penalty in a more simple way?

Not a solution to module hitpoints (I'm clueless as to what can be done with it), but a suggestion for your crazy idea: Fuel (yes it's been suggested before, I don't remember what context it had on the other threads though)

The numbers are just for examples sake.

A fuel tank holds 20 minutes of active play-time. A tank starts off with 6 fuel tanks, and naturally loses fuel by just using the tank. If the player dies with that tank, one of their fuel tanks are destroyed. The only way they can regain fuel is by using a different tank - sending your tank to the squadron HQ? - and the only way you can repair destroyed fuel tanks is with a rare repair item.

If all of the fuel tanks are destroyed, the tank becomes locked again and can only be unlocked with the specific tank unlock required.

[Kelsoo]

Jul 29, 2014 15:08:21 GMT -5 rob said:

Here's a crazy idea:

Require that tanks be re-unlocked after death (you'd keep the installed modules, xp, augments, etc). Obviously we'd need to change drop rates and unlocks levels a lot. For example, we could drop only level 1 tank unlocks, and have the most expensive tank be a level 6 or 8 or so. Silver never needs to be unlocked.

I like the idea of degrading modules at death (I think prism decay is working really well), but the partial "module hit points" thing seems too complicated. How can we increase the death penalty in a more simple way?

That sounds really really, really really really, really, unnecessarily annoying. And borderline antagonistic to the player, forcing them to constantly go through a terrible awful grind if they die to unlock tanks they care about, not to mention the impact on any "economy" tank unlocks are a big coin maker, and a way for paying players to easily unlock part of a grind. With higher droprates it just makes it so they won't pay money for tanks, or really want to bother constantly unlocking them to actually have fun playing the game. Especially when tanks provide a way to differ gameplay and play how you want.

Degrading modules sounds fine if modules are fixed to stop being random, prism decay is cool, but I really would LOVE (more than I already love you with my squad to honor you) you and the game if prisms decayed faster, like say three prisms on death, that way players want to go back out to re-prism a bit after one or two deaths, not after ten. It also has the psychological effect of actually feeling how much you lost, three prism levels downgraded will be a noticeable impact, you will automatically feel slower at everything. When you are slowly withered down you don't notice it as much until the end. This also makes death abuse less viable as well. Die on a convoy a couple times (unlikely because they are easy but hypothetically here) well you can no longer catch up to it and stay with a group, much less get the loot, your fault for being reckless, go re-prism for about fifteen to twenty minutes and come back later.

A greater death penalty is only needed right now though, because people don't die often enough. Maybe if the game helped kill off players a harsh penalty would not be needed. Either way I think it does need to be increased slightly, but how much depends on how difficult the game becomes. Keep in mind I don't use modules very often or go out of my way to get more. Because I don't care enough, it seems like much more work to get modules and have such a tiny bonus when I don't feel like I even need one. I find the game far to easy as is and boring, why go out of my way to make it easier, as such my opinion on module degradation may be biased or unfair. Personally I see it as fine.

As for my final thoughts on Will's idea, it feels to much like every other linear, gray progression system, and I don't think it fits here.

[Will]

Jul 29, 2014 23:40:09 GMT -5 Kelsoo said:

As for my final thoughts on Will's idea, it feels to much like every other linear, gray progression system, and I don't think it fits here.

But the whole point of my post is this: To input something into the game that is an entirely new concept that essentially sends the game in another direction. My idea doesn't fit at all which is why it's insane. It completely re-vamps the system of getting modules and increases the death penalty. I hate to refer to realm, but really the evolution of that game was because of ideas that didn't FIT but added-on to or replaced their respective systems. This game is in Alpha testing. If every idea had to FIT within the pre-existing system that defined the game at that certain point in time, the game would hardly ever evolve into something that is much greater than it was before.

Another example of drastic change of a central game system or mechanic was the transition from COD 2 to COD 4. In COD 2, there were just 5 pre-existing classes you could play, no perks, no killstreaks, no levels or ranks or prestige system, NOTHING. The gameplay of the game was amazing, but the reward system for playing the game was dry and bare-bones. But, after adding multiple innovations to their game, Infinity Ward, after only 2 years, released what was quite possibly the pinnacle of Modern Warfare FPS's as we know it. The only reason they achieved this was because they made innovations, they didn't just add things that FIT within the system that the game ran by, but they added on to it, changed it, removed some things, took some risks, and it paid off.

I know I'm being a bit... dramatic, but there's nothing wrong with being a visionary