Grid12 development on hold

[rob]

Hi folks,

I am putting development of Grid12 on indefinite hold. I'll get into the reasons and prognosis in a bit, but first off let me thank you for the help you have all put into testing the game. Your feedback has been invaluable, and I really appreciate it.

Recently, Google and other browser makers turned off Flash in everyone's browsers worldwide for a day or so. This was due to a serious security bug in Flash player, but it has brought into stark reality the possibility that Flash may disappear one day, permanently, without warning. I need to be prepared for the eventuality of a "Flashpocalypse", and so I've decided to start experimenting with other technologies for browser-based MMO clients.

Now is a good time to do this for a couple of reasons. First, Tim just left for grad school, so I can experiment and make mistakes without having to keep him busy. Second, Grid12 player numbers are currently at an ebb, so relatively few people will be impacted by a hiatus in Grid12 development.

My plan is to build a multiplayer demo using (probably) Emscripten and some other new-to-me technologies, then assess whether to flesh the demo out into a new game, or take what I've learned and build a new Grid12 client. I have no idea what the timeframe for the decision will be.

In the meantime, please check out Alex's excellent StarBreak!

[2016-Oct] Note from Amit: Rob says this project is canceled.

[Kelsoo]

I feel as if Flash as we know it is slowly dying off as a hole. HTML5 allows for what most people used it for (YouTube) to not deal with Flash, a huge punch in what it's userbase. I've experimented on using my current browser without flash many times due to it always having privacy issues and then breaks and vulnerabilities like this cement the fact that I would only ever continue to use it for games of this nature... not exactly like you want the mass consumer market to rely on A). knowing about the site and game then B.) wondering why when they go to the site it doesn't play.. Flash.. whats that a virus? (family talk) Anyways, I'll support your continued progress wherever you go Rob. MMO's are declining big time and we are in a drought.

[sirnull]

Web pages fully replaced with virtualized desktop applications when??

[Will]

This really makes me sad. 3 years ago, I could have never imagined playing anything else BESIDES flash games on the internet. Sad thing is, Realm is going to die soon enough as well, the moderators have discontinued giving frequent updates to the people that still play it, sometimes not communicating for MONTHS. This also marks the end of an era for me personally as I go into college and my childhood (somewhat) ends. Over the course of my 4 years of high school, I played a lot of Rotmg with friends and the same goes for Grid. Thanks for participating in the creation of those two games Rob. Rotmg pre-Kabam was awesome.


EDIT: Apparently they just released 27.4 for Rotmg yesterday, the first new build in over 6 months...

[Kelsoo]

Aug 6, 2015 19:29:27 GMT -5 Will said:

This really makes me sad. 3 years ago, I could have never imagined playing anything else BESIDES flash games on the internet. Sad thing is, Realm is going to die soon enough as well, the moderators have discontinued giving frequent updates to the people that still play it, sometimes not communicating for MONTHS. This also marks the end of an era for me personally as I go into college and my childhood (somewhat) ends. Over the course of my 4 years of high school, I played a lot of Rotmg with friends and the same goes for Grid. Thanks for participating in the creation of those two games Rob. Rotmg pre-Kabam was awesome.


EDIT: Apparently they just released 27.4 for Rotmg yesterday, the first new build in over 6 months...

Actually around 7-8 months considering actual content updates and the last one was actually just migration of accounts, Rotmg is a Flash... MMO... F2P.... Browser based game, every single one of these is a dying breed especially on PC, aside from some F2P giants like TF2, Dota etc, but these are completely different genres. MMO's are in recession as a genre even GOOD quality ones, and of them none are browser based or on Flash. The time of most of these has past and Rob has made advancements to changing the meta and monotony of some, though nowadays I believe an analogy of screaming in a desert works best. Flash as a platform of games is dead, the legions of players on lower powered machines are using their phones now, website giants of old flashgames are dying out as well, in favor of less substance in games for a different market on Mobile. Everyone else is shifting to PC on Steam with lower power machines playing giants like Dota, LoL and CS etc...

I long expected this actually after I stopped playing Grid daily I was hopeful the team here would make it off of a project, but only just barely, no illusions of grandeur. Grid is going to have to find a different platform to pitch on.. and if that platform comes out of browser based, have fun competing with every other F2P game on steam that runs on lower hardware with different business models. Getting onto steam is incredibly easy nowadays and its a free for all.

Best bet is letting Grid sarinate I'd say and hopping it gets media coverage as being a game to challenge traditional meta of what it is to be F2P and an MMO, though MMO pitching is hard when so many are done investing that much time, especially in a risk indie title. Preferring to adhere to older classics like WoW or join the new frontier of F2P comp giants,

[Will]

Aug 7, 2015 1:38:36 GMT -5 Kelsoo said:

Aug 6, 2015 19:29:27 GMT -5 Will said:

This really makes me sad. 3 years ago, I could have never imagined playing anything else BESIDES flash games on the internet. Sad thing is, Realm is going to die soon enough as well, the moderators have discontinued giving frequent updates to the people that still play it, sometimes not communicating for MONTHS. This also marks the end of an era for me personally as I go into college and my childhood (somewhat) ends. Over the course of my 4 years of high school, I played a lot of Rotmg with friends and the same goes for Grid. Thanks for participating in the creation of those two games Rob. Rotmg pre-Kabam was awesome.


EDIT: Apparently they just released 27.4 for Rotmg yesterday, the first new build in over 6 months...

Actually around 7-8 months considering actual content updates and the last one was actually just migration of accounts, Rotmg is a Flash... MMO... F2P.... Browser based game, every single one of these is a dying breed especially on PC, aside from some F2P giants like TF2, Dota etc, but these are completely different genres. MMO's are in recession as a genre even GOOD quality ones, and of them none are browser based or on Flash. The time of most of these has past and Rob has made advancements to changing the meta and monotony of some, though nowadays I believe an analogy of screaming in a desert works best. Flash as a platform of games is dead, the legions of players on lower powered machines are using their phones now, website giants of old flashgames are dying out as well, in favor of less substance in games for a different market on Mobile. Everyone else is shifting to PC on Steam with lower power machines playing giants like Dota, LoL and CS etc...

I long expected this actually after I stopped playing Grid daily I was hopeful the team here would make it off of a project, but only just barely, no illusions of grandeur. Grid is going to have to find a different platform to pitch on.. and if that platform comes out of browser based, have fun competing with every other F2P game on steam that runs on lower hardware with different business models. Getting onto steam is incredibly easy nowadays and its a free for all.

Best bet is letting Grid sarinate I'd say and hopping it gets media coverage as being a game to challenge traditional meta of what it is to be F2P and an MMO, though MMO pitching is hard when so many are done investing that much time, especially in a risk indie title. Preferring to adhere to older classics like WoW or join the new frontier of F2P comp giants,

Don't forget about all those unity games. There are some really advanced ones especially on Kongregate that see a lot of play. I'm not really up to date with this stuff so I don't really think about it, but I guess the reality is that flash will be dead in a couple of years, if it isn't already. It's absolutely incredible what kind of games can be made using unity, but I think MMOs like Grid and Realm have a place, the only reason Realm isn't getting played any more is because the game has been ruined by hackers and Kabam's monetization of it to the point where you can literally buy WC Tops in the Nexus. Grid 12 was still in closed alpha and doesn't quite have a winning system yet although the game can be really fun to play when there is a good incentive to play it. Yes, MMOs like Rotmg and Grid are dying, but that doesn't mean that there isn't a chance the genre could be revived.

[Kelsoo]

Aug 7, 2015 19:06:46 GMT -5 Will said:

Aug 7, 2015 1:38:36 GMT -5 Kelsoo said:

Actually around 7-8 months considering actual content updates and the last one was actually just migration of accounts, Rotmg is a Flash... MMO... F2P.... Browser based game, every single one of these is a dying breed especially on PC, aside from some F2P giants like TF2, Dota etc, but these are completely different genres. MMO's are in recession as a genre even GOOD quality ones, and of them none are browser based or on Flash. The time of most of these has past and Rob has made advancements to changing the meta and monotony of some, though nowadays I believe an analogy of screaming in a desert works best. Flash as a platform of games is dead, the legions of players on lower powered machines are using their phones now, website giants of old flashgames are dying out as well, in favor of less substance in games for a different market on Mobile. Everyone else is shifting to PC on Steam with lower power machines playing giants like Dota, LoL and CS etc...

I long expected this actually after I stopped playing Grid daily I was hopeful the team here would make it off of a project, but only just barely, no illusions of grandeur. Grid is going to have to find a different platform to pitch on.. and if that platform comes out of browser based, have fun competing with every other F2P game on steam that runs on lower hardware with different business models. Getting onto steam is incredibly easy nowadays and its a free for all.

Best bet is letting Grid sarinate I'd say and hopping it gets media coverage as being a game to challenge traditional meta of what it is to be F2P and an MMO, though MMO pitching is hard when so many are done investing that much time, especially in a risk indie title. Preferring to adhere to older classics like WoW or join the new frontier of F2P comp giants,

Don't forget about all those unity games. There are some really advanced ones especially on Kongregate that see a lot of play. I'm not really up to date with this stuff so I don't really think about it, but I guess the reality is that flash will be dead in a couple of years, if it isn't already. It's absolutely incredible what kind of games can be made using unity, but I think MMOs like Grid and Realm have a place, the only reason Realm isn't getting played any more is because the game has been ruined by hackers and Kabam's monetization of it to the point where you can literally buy WC Tops in the Nexus. Grid 12 was still in closed alpha and doesn't quite have a winning system yet although the game can be really fun to play when there is a good incentive to play it. Yes, MMOs like Rotmg and Grid are dying, but that doesn't mean that there isn't a chance the genre could be revived.

Nah, it can be but I believe it'll have to be a while down the line, MMO's in general are dying and only WoW can really manage to pull a noticeable profit and consistent playerbase, with games like Eve behind though making it. Its just a breed that I believe gamers are needing time from, or don't have time for in general. Realm was dying even before the update drought, players even quit right before endgame dungeons like shatters were released from boredom in general. Grid12 was neither doing well or bad in terms of success because it has been in an early state you can't comment much on it.

You make a good point on unity browser games though, but I'm not sure how well those work on integrated graphics power. Still requires install of a plugin as well, but for those already in the know there is a gold mine. I think the real problem here is browser based in general. The majority of the mainstream market today do not visit sites for games to play anymore, they view many sites as giving them viruses, and besides they have games on their smartphones and tablets that run the same in a more comfortable environment. Sites that serve hundreds of games like that I fear are doomed never adapt and die out due to people just losing interest and it being a very niche market for those in the know only. The new way of serving games right from browsers seems to be heralded by a site like Gamejolt, allowing for downloads of games, and other games to be hosted and played within the browser through a Unity plugin or otherwise. But even then browser based just seems like a very longshot at this point. Flash was the only real ubiquitous plugin you could count on, and Apple and Google both want rid of it, while Firefox is following close in suit. When your game takes more than a single step from the browser to having to click big scary buttons to download software that will allow it to be played you run into more problems. Steam seems like the only real place to go anymore.

[sirnull]

MMOs dying? F2P dying? That's a bit funny.

MMO is one of the few consistently growing (meta-)genres, and that growth can be fully attributed to F2P MMOs. (P2P is declining, but very slowly and by no means dying either.) This is one of the best times to be in the business, really.

Whats dying or already dead is the Flash client, Java in the browser, and various other security and performance nightmares. Unity will follow. It's probably better this way.

[thecatliterman]

After a really long much needed break from gaming, i come back to see my favorite games in decline, RotMG has only had 1 update since i was gone (8 monthsish) and although this game has had many updates, there is no one to share the game with. Not to mention my laptop broke, even though it was nearly 7 years old, it had much more power than the one i'm using now, and i'm unable to play games like this or RotMG on it. Oh well, all things have to come to an end, and i've surely had a ton a fun on this game and RotMG, so it was well worth it. I guess now i can focus more on college, because for some reason i made it through high school while procrastinating all the time on this and RotMG. Anyway, thanks Rob for giving me years of fun on these games, and i wish you good luck in whatever you're planning to do from this point on, i'll try to play whatever you come up with.

P.S. You're cool also, Tim

[Kelsoo]

Aug 9, 2015 11:40:46 GMT -5 sirnull said:

MMOs dying? F2P dying? That's a bit funny.

MMO is one of the few consistently growing (meta-)genres, and that growth can be fully attributed to F2P MMOs. (P2P is declining, but very slowly and by no means dying either.) This is one of the best times to be in the business, really.

Whats dying or already dead is the Flash client, Java in the browser, and various other security and performance nightmares. Unity will follow. It's probably better this way.

I never said F2P was dying, MMO's as a whole are though, unless you can point me to statistics that WoW or any other major MMO has had profits *not* declining (Edit here, WoW was in decline, and this can be attributed to its business model etc, though I suspect that other F2P giants are eating away at its consistent playerbase, aside from occasional surges due to expansions, which are then quickly settled back down to the few remnants that still actually play) or otherwise I'm just not sure what you're pointing to.

F2P is not dying at all, in fact the movement has recently gotten its footing as one of the most successful business models (and only in the past few years), especially the more pernicious forms of it that prey on those with gambling addictions etc.. If anything like that sounded like I was specifically referring to F2P it was F2P in MMO's.

Aside from how WoW and EVE have remained at least profitable, there is very, very very little room left to enter and most MMO's (perhaps we are arguing over a definition? Do you have other games that you consider MMO's? that are not only doing well but are publishing heavy profit?) WoW has only recently received a surge due to expansions... and then it waned back down. Most of this was due to Twitch streamers having an itch from the actual golden age of MMO's years ago.

Either way I never meant to imply F2P was on any verge of failing, Mobile alone is a testament, let alone LoL, Dota, Smite, TF2, hell even games like CS:GO that you have to pay for have started implementing F2P aspects.

You can point to a growth in F2P MMO-likes, but their actual profits come from a very small group, and by no means actually represent what the public at large is looking for. F2P MMO creators often target the "whales". If you do choose to include these awful F2P models being implemented into semi MMO's as being the golden age for what most consider actual MMO's by all means. But I'm making a distinction here at MMO's with substance etc. The surge in "mmos" targeted at a minority group with to much money/gambling addictions, is just that, the minority is what is driving these games by the fact that the minority they target are the very wealthy. And with an ever increasing wage gap in markets these games are targeted at, I don't believe it can be said that they're doing particularly great with the mainstream crowd. And in fact in general considering its rare that any of these games actually makes a success and garners the attention of the "whales" they seek.

[Will]

Aug 10, 2015 6:26:48 GMT -5 Kelsoo said:

Aug 9, 2015 11:40:46 GMT -5 sirnull said:

MMOs dying? F2P dying? That's a bit funny.

MMO is one of the few consistently growing (meta-)genres, and that growth can be fully attributed to F2P MMOs. (P2P is declining, but very slowly and by no means dying either.) This is one of the best times to be in the business, really.

Whats dying or already dead is the Flash client, Java in the browser, and various other security and performance nightmares. Unity will follow. It's probably better this way.

I never said F2P was dying, MMO's as a whole are though, unless you can point me to statistics that WoW or any other major MMO has had profits *not* declining (Edit here, WoW was in decline, and this can be attributed to its business model etc, though I suspect that other F2P giants are eating away at its consistent playerbase, aside from occasional surges due to expansions, which are then quickly settled back down to the few remnants that still actually play) or otherwise I'm just not sure what you're pointing to.

F2P is not dying at all, in fact the movement has recently gotten its footing as one of the most successful business models (and only in the past few years), especially the more pernicious forms of it that prey on those with gambling addictions etc.. If anything like that sounded like I was specifically referring to F2P it was F2P in MMO's.

Aside from how WoW and EVE have remained at least profitable, there is very, very very little room left to enter and most MMO's (perhaps we are arguing over a definition? Do you have other games that you consider MMO's? that are not only doing well but are publishing heavy profit?) WoW has only recently received a surge due to expansions... and then it waned back down. Most of this was due to Twitch streamers having an itch from the actual golden age of MMO's years ago.

Either way I never meant to imply F2P was on any verge of failing, Mobile alone is a testament, let alone LoL, Dota, Smite, TF2, hell even games like CS:GO that you have to pay for have started implementing F2P aspects.

You can point to a growth in F2P MMO-likes, but their actual profits come from a very small group, and by no means actually represent what the public at large is looking for. F2P MMO creators often target the "whales". If you do choose to include these awful F2P models being implemented into semi MMO's as being the golden age for what most consider actual MMO's by all means. But I'm making a distinction here at MMO's with substance etc. The surge in "mmos" targeted at a minority group with to much money/gambling addictions, is just that, the minority is what is driving these games by the fact that the minority they target are the very wealthy. And with an ever increasing wage gap in markets these games are targeted at, I don't believe it can be said that they're doing particularly great with the mainstream crowd. And in fact in general considering its rare that any of these games actually makes a success and garners the attention of the "whales" they seek.

Just want to say that your analysis and what you're saying is basically spot-on, especially the thing you said about gambling.

[nathan]

what a shame. the amount of times me and will stayed up the majority of the night grinding out wall regions is crazy. its hard to see games like realm and grid die like this. i just hope that someone finds a better way to play this game other than flash 

[Kelsoo]

Aug 11, 2015 19:50:03 GMT -5 Will said:

Aug 10, 2015 6:26:48 GMT -5 Kelsoo said:

I never said F2P was dying, MMO's as a whole are though, unless you can point me to statistics that WoW or any other major MMO has had profits *not* declining (Edit here, WoW was in decline, and this can be attributed to its business model etc, though I suspect that other F2P giants are eating away at its consistent playerbase, aside from occasional surges due to expansions, which are then quickly settled back down to the few remnants that still actually play) or otherwise I'm just not sure what you're pointing to.

F2P is not dying at all, in fact the movement has recently gotten its footing as one of the most successful business models (and only in the past few years), especially the more pernicious forms of it that prey on those with gambling addictions etc.. If anything like that sounded like I was specifically referring to F2P it was F2P in MMO's.

Aside from how WoW and EVE have remained at least profitable, there is very, very very little room left to enter and most MMO's (perhaps we are arguing over a definition? Do you have other games that you consider MMO's? that are not only doing well but are publishing heavy profit?) WoW has only recently received a surge due to expansions... and then it waned back down. Most of this was due to Twitch streamers having an itch from the actual golden age of MMO's years ago.

Either way I never meant to imply F2P was on any verge of failing, Mobile alone is a testament, let alone LoL, Dota, Smite, TF2, hell even games like CS:GO that you have to pay for have started implementing F2P aspects.

You can point to a growth in F2P MMO-likes, but their actual profits come from a very small group, and by no means actually represent what the public at large is looking for. F2P MMO creators often target the "whales". If you do choose to include these awful F2P models being implemented into semi MMO's as being the golden age for what most consider actual MMO's by all means. But I'm making a distinction here at MMO's with substance etc. The surge in "mmos" targeted at a minority group with to much money/gambling addictions, is just that, the minority is what is driving these games by the fact that the minority they target are the very wealthy. And with an ever increasing wage gap in markets these games are targeted at, I don't believe it can be said that they're doing particularly great with the mainstream crowd. And in fact in general considering its rare that any of these games actually makes a success and garners the attention of the "whales" they seek.

Just want to say that your analysis and what you're saying is basically spot-on, especially the thing you said about gambling.

Thanks! I've been researching it a bit, I have plenty of friends who all played MMO's and witnessed the changes I just find it interesting. And hey! Realm got another update that killed notifiers lol.. Maybe it is back to life in some frankenstein way

[Jelly]

It's a shame really. Thats the problem being in any type of technology business. If I want to go in to the industry, by the time I'm in my prime VR could be all the rage. Good luck for the future, for everyone.

[tupac]

Shame that this was posted at July and still haven't found a solution. I can't speak for you though, I have no idea how to code.