Build 133

[rob]

Greetings Brave Testers! Build 133 is here!

* Revamp all the stim packs, neurodrips and implants
* Rearrange a few tank unlock levels
* Scale exploration XP rewards with level

Hey folks! We've got a smallish list this week because both Tim and I spent time working on things that won't get pushed for a week or two. Tim's doing the installable 5th trigger project, while I was working on lore. That's right, after all this time, Grid12 is finally getting a setting, story and villain.

But as for features that did get completed this week, I'll start with the timed buff items. We had nine poorly-named implants with seemingly random bonuses, plus one stim pack and one neurodrip. As promised last week, we deleted all existing items of these types. They have been replaced with 3 new items of each kind. The neurodrips buff either damage, rate of fire, or range and turret speed. The implants buff either shields, hull or "speed" (which includes turret and fire rate buffs). The stim packs buff either guns, defense or triggers. You can see all the stats in the buyoffer menu. Neurodrips are still crafted (only), but they have new recipes. Implants still drop in the same variety of places, and stim packs still drop when spawning subcommanders.

Hurricane is now a level 3 tank, bumping Wildfire to 4, bumping Vindicator down to 1. We'll see if anyone can make any use of the Vind down there before deciding what to do with it. I also switched Cutlass up to level 5, bringing Dragon down to level 4.

I added a difficulty scale to the xp rewards for finding towns, routes, minerals, wormholes and warp gates. The reward is unchanged in yellow regions, but it's about 40% of that value in green regions, doubled in orange and tripled in red.

Next week I'll be at GDC in San Francisco. If any Grid12 players plan to attend, let me know and we can meet up! Although Tim's not attending this year, we're undecided as to whether he'll push a build next week. The extra installable guns project is beckoning and he may want to forge ahead on that instead of doing a push. We'll let you know!

As always, we thank you greatly for you help in testing the game. Thanks!

Rob & Tim
Jetbolt Games

[Will]

GJ with the tank unlock levels Rob, what you did was great moving the Vind down to 1 and the Cutlass up to 5. Also, gj on the lore and simplification of the buff system regarding stimpaks, neurodrips, and implants. Also, xp scaling for discovery is great, but 40% for green regions? Damn.

[thecatliterman]

Little bug report, i seem to crash a lot whenever i tp to someone and then switch tanks quickly, there are other circumstances but i don't know what they are. Usually when the person i'm tping to is in danger. It dc's not only me, but whoever is in the server at the time. It's happened about 10-20 times in the past week. I have trouble reproducing it alone. Sorry i don't have anymore information, i'll try my best to reproduce it and get any more info, for now, this is all i got.

[aesc]

Large Cannon Damage mods for Corsair doesn't seem to work.

[rob]

Thank you for the bug reports!

Due to GDC, we've decided not to push a new build on March 4. But we should have lots of goodness for you the following week!

[Kelsoo]

Feb 28, 2015 6:40:19 GMT -5 rob said:

Thank you for the bug reports!

Due to GDC, we've decided not to push a new build on March 4. But we should have lots of goodness for you the following week!

Take plenty of pictures of your journeys! I still remember hornet rob, I wonder....

Found it!

[quicklite]

Well, since you kindly bumped the vindicator down to level 1, I've been doing some playing with it. I've always liked the tank, but something felt like it didn't fit, but it was hard to play with when it was level 4, since a tank centralized around being weak is a tank that's prone to dying, and thus blowing through tank unlocks

Playing with it now, I've gotta say, the vindicator itself isn't a bad concept of a tank. It's mildly thrilling playing at a constant state of near-death, and hella satisfying when you save your life with an amplified explosion. It's a lot of fun to use in yellow and green regions, where staying at a constant state of 1/3 health is something you can feasibly do. However, I find that the vind's main problem is that you are forced to stay at near-death to actually have any fun with the tank. The guns it has are vaguely pathetic, and the blink-burst doesn't hit nearly hard enough to make a difference to anything that isn't a small fort. Admitedly, it can use its insta shields and health triggers to tank hits, but it doesn't have any niche in that regard, as there are plenty of tanks far more capable at protecting teammates (paladin's freeze-disarm combo and healgun, guardian's heal station, minotaur's invincibility and frontal shield regen, fury's bulk, corsair's...everything). And when you take all of that out of the mix, all the tank has left is its explosion, which is impressively amplified at low health. Meaning that you have a tank whose only niche only kicks in when it is almost dead.

And I figure at this point, whoever is reading this is probably thinking "Yes, that's the point, the tank excels at low health, did you miss a memo or something?" But then again, what does the blast excel at? It's great crowd control, and can terrorize minions. But then there's the hercules, a tank with a similar explosive that has a faster cooldown and no health restriction. In fact, the only real time when the herc's bomb is really outmatched is when the vind is at around 1/3 health. Or you could just point out the hurricane, which needs no health weakness to wipe all minions off the map ever.

You might also point out that the vind's blast can do great structural damage to multi-structure buildings such as security forts. But then we have the scorpion and minotaur, whose AoE burst capabilities pretty much trump the vind's until the vind hits around 1/3 health. It also such pretty impressive single-target damage...until we remember the wildfire, hornet, viking, and avenger, all tanks which can deal far more until the vind hits critical health. What I'm trying to say is that until you've almost killed off the vindicator, there is always something that can fill its role better. In fact, the only way the vind could actually outperform another tank at a role is if you kept it at a constant state of 1/3 health, which is not only really freaking impractical, but just outright stupid in orange, red, and even harder yellow regions, where losing 1/3 health to a sneaky bomb or missile every so often is pretty much expected. So in my eyes, that's where the vindicator is fatally flawed. Yes, it gets a niche at 1/3 health, but when it's above that mark, it's outperformed. Which leaves in an odd position, since other tanks can constantly participate in a fight to some degree of meaning, whereas the vind really can't until its in a position where participation is damn hard to do without dying as a side effect.

So, what would my feedback be? Firstoff, the tank needs to have some purpose when it isn't almost dead. I mean, it should definitely excel when it's weak, but when it isn't weak it should still be capable of at least filling some sort of role. I think the vind's guns could be buffed so that it could at least leave some sort of mark on its own. The blink-blast, though fun to use, doesn't feel particularly strong or definite. A damage buff might work for it, though it might be more interesting if it got some other affect like DoT or maybe weakness (2x damage, which is probably not something you could just code when will I learn this). Also, two healing specials feel a bit too reminiscent of the silver. Perhaps change the shield refill with some sort of invinicibility trigger? I feel like in harder forts, the shield simply isn't enough to save you if you try to fully take advantage of its first trigger, so replacing the shield trigger with something that trades longevity (which probably isn't going to be the forte of something that excels when almost dead) with survivability. Hell, if you think an invincibility trigger is redundant, you could make it a disarm/speed boost combo or some sort of unique blink backwards, though tbh invincibility just seems like a quicker, easier, and more fitting solution.

What do you guys all think? Do you agree with my general analysis of the vind, or did I miss something at some point? And do my proposed buffs have any merit, or do you think there's a better way?

[Crunch]

Well, I've written a lot on the Vind, played it a great deal, and even proposed a few fixes, so I suppose I can chime in again.

Do you agree with my general analysis of the vind

Based on past experience, yes, I agree. Iirc, even when the Vind blast was cheese-worthy, it was still highly limited and more of a novelty tank. The only things it really did well were scouting, killing DreadFang minions, and cheesing town levels. Since the nerf, the Vind has lost said functionality and really does nothing with any sense of proficiency, as you've said. If anything, its design exacerbates some of the underlying issues on the Grid, making it less fun to play, long term, than conventional tanks.

And do my proposed buffs have any merit, or do you think there's a better way?

I'd be in favor of a few of your ideas, but I suspect that they will still not fix the tank. Regardless of what I've written in the past, I think the most interesting and potentially useful thing the Vind could gain would be a combination invincibility/blast trigger. Imagine the Vind goes invincible for a short duration, then a ratio of all damage taken during that period is returned in the blast. Simple in concept, but probably a pain and a special exception to code. However, it would allow some interesting play with sitting on mines, or tanking missiles, etc. The idea would be to allow the Vind to scale with the enemies it's facing, rather than being stuck with a simple min/max damage output. This idea may also not actually make the tank playable and could possibly introduce a slew of bugs and exploits, so I can't really feel confident in the suggestion. 

[quicklite]

Mar 9, 2015 1:37:54 GMT -5 Crunch said:

Well, I've written a lot on the Vind, played it a great deal, and even proposed a few fixes, so I suppose I can chime in again.

Do you agree with my general analysis of the vind

Based on past experience, yes, I agree. Iirc, even when the Vind blast was cheese-worthy, it was still highly limited and more of a novelty tank. The only things it really did well were scouting, killing DreadFang minions, and cheesing town levels. Since the nerf, the Vind has lost said functionality and really does nothing with any sense of proficiency, as you've said. If anything, its design exacerbates some of the underlying issues on the Grid, making it less fun to play, long term, than conventional tanks.

And do my proposed buffs have any merit, or do you think there's a better way?

I'd be in favor of a few of your ideas, but I suspect that they will still not fix the tank. Regardless of what I've written in the past, I think the most interesting and potentially useful thing the Vind could gain would be a combination invincibility/blast trigger. Imagine the Vind goes invincible for a short duration, then a ratio of all damage taken during that period is returned in the blast. Simple in concept, but probably a pain and a special exception to code. However, it would allow some interesting play with sitting on mines, or tanking missiles, etc. The idea would be to allow the Vind to scale with the enemies it's facing, rather than being stuck with a simple min/max damage output. This idea may also not actually make the tank playable and could possibly introduce a slew of bugs and exploits, so I can't really feel confident in the suggestion. 

Read your analysis. It's a bit outdated (ya know, cuz it was pre-vind revamp/nerf), but it was a damn good read, way more thorough than mine, so nicely done . I felt like the old shields gave the vind some versatility, as it could take hits better and then explode with maximum damage while still having a health barrier to rely on, but I don't feel like the new vind's silver-esque triggers are really enough for harder regions (nor do they feel particularly fun to use tbh). My chosen buffs were a bit haphazard, mostly cuz I couldn't see how to improve the tank without re-doing it entirely. Though I liked your invinicibility idea, it seemed a little overpowered, since there are plenty of ways you could rack up damage equal to at least 10x your health on harder forts, and the subsequent blast would probably equal a pre-nerf corsair shear in deadliness >_>. Perhaps there could be a similar thing where damage to the vind is thirded for a short period of time? That way it could effectively tank things like bombs, letting it more easily get off its explosion and subsequent getaway. Though even with that, I still feel like the tank's a little shallow if it revolves entirely around that explosive trigger. I'm okay with it revolving around doing damage when weak, but having the entire tank be based around that single thing feels a little one-dimensional in both tactics and general versatility. What do you think?

[Deleted]

I think I like the idea of a damage-reflecting tank.
The first trigger reduces damage by a certain percentage for x seconds, and at the end fires a blast that deals damage relative to the amount reduced.
The second trigger refills health and/or shields, allowing you to tank, and therefore reflect, much more damage.
The third and fourth triggers could be short range damaging teleports. One backwards and one forwards.

You have to judge the amount of damage you take during your first trigger, to make sure you don't die before the damage blast goes off. At the same time, you want to tank as much as possible.
One of the triggers could be an invincibility trigger to guarantee that you are able to deal the damage without dying, but then it'd just be another Dragon.

[Will]

On the topic of the vindicator, since we are talking about it, I have played with the tank a bit and decided that the vindicator, although it has literally no use besides for its first trigger, could be great if the CD on the first trigger was lowered by about 3 seconds. The trick to using it is purposely taking damage, getting low hp, and then putting your shield up using your fourth (whichever trigger it is, I can't remember) trigger and then pressing one to use your bomb. I find that this is where the vindicator becomes useless. At this point, you don't have any defenses besides your four weak guns that don't ever shoot at the same thing at once, your lone shield that can only regen outside of combat because it has full coverage and thus if you get hit by any projectile then it pauses the process of shield regeneration, and your third trigger that gives you an instant boost of hp that takes away any kind of power you would have from your first trigger. Maybe just reduce the cooldown on the first trigger and make it so that you can have the option of stopping your HP from regenerating.

[Crunch]

Mar 9, 2015 7:23:44 GMT -5 quicklite said:

Though I liked your invinicibility idea, it seemed a little overpowered, since there are plenty of ways you could rack up damage equal to at least 10x your health on harder forts, and the subsequent blast would probably equal a pre-nerf corsair shear in deadliness >_>. Perhaps there could be a similar thing where damage to the vind is thirded for a short period of time? That way it could effectively tank things like bombs, letting it more easily get off its explosion and subsequent getaway. Though even with that, I still feel like the tank's a little shallow if it revolves entirely around that explosive trigger. I'm okay with it revolving around doing damage when weak, but having the entire tank be based around that single thing feels a little one-dimensional in both tactics and general versatility. What do you think?

I completely agree. Also, Cardz has a good idea about the trigger granting damage resistance rather than invincibility. That might work to some degree, or not; it's hard to say. Truthfully, my main concern with the Vind isn't really about it being over/under powered. It mostly has to do with an inherent pacing problem. IMHO, waiting for a trigger to recharge just isn't fun. I actually feel the same way about some tanks, when it comes to their shields, so I may have a minority view on this issue. 

The main difference, though, between waiting for shields and triggers to recharge has to do with user action. Depending on player skill and upgrades, some tanks can always rotate in a fully or partially regenerated shield segment, during battle. Meaning, a good tank with a good driver can continuously engage in combat without waiting around for something to recharge. Triggers and, subsequently, the Vind cannot really be finessed in this way. Its mechanics simply demand that once its blast is on cooldown, players tread carefully and avoid even moderate danger until the Vind can attack again. I fear that even my extreme idea doesn't remedy this issue. 

Mar 9, 2015 8:52:08 GMT -5 @cardz said:

I think I like the idea of a damage-reflecting tank.
The first trigger reduces damage by a certain percentage for x seconds, and at the end fires a blast that deals damage relative to the amount reduced.
The second trigger refills health and/or shields, allowing you to tank, and therefore reflect, much more damage.
The third and fourth triggers could be short range damaging teleports. One backwards and one forwards.

You have to judge the amount of damage you take during your first trigger, to make sure you don't die before the damage blast goes off. At the same time, you want to tank as much as possible.
One of the triggers could be an invincibility trigger to guarantee that you are able to deal the damage without dying, but then it'd just be another Dragon.

I like this idea, as it opens up the possibility for healing classes to assist the Vindicator attacks. As an afterthought, I also wonder what utility an "aggro" trigger would have on the Vind. Imagine the ability to draw all enemy fire away from allies within a certain radius. This would certainly add to the team-play aspect, as long as other issues are fixed as well. 

[quicklite]

Mar 9, 2015 12:24:39 GMT -5 Crunch said:

Mar 9, 2015 7:23:44 GMT -5 quicklite said:

Though I liked your invinicibility idea, it seemed a little overpowered, since there are plenty of ways you could rack up damage equal to at least 10x your health on harder forts, and the subsequent blast would probably equal a pre-nerf corsair shear in deadliness >_>. Perhaps there could be a similar thing where damage to the vind is thirded for a short period of time? That way it could effectively tank things like bombs, letting it more easily get off its explosion and subsequent getaway. Though even with that, I still feel like the tank's a little shallow if it revolves entirely around that explosive trigger. I'm okay with it revolving around doing damage when weak, but having the entire tank be based around that single thing feels a little one-dimensional in both tactics and general versatility. What do you think?

I completely agree. Also, Cardz has a good idea about the trigger granting damage resistance rather than invincibility. That might work to some degree, or not; it's hard to say. Truthfully, my main concern with the Vind isn't really about it being over/under powered. It mostly has to do with an inherent pacing problem. IMHO, waiting for a trigger to recharge just isn't fun. I actually feel the same way about some tanks, when it comes to their shields, so I may have a minority view on this issue. 

The main difference, though, between waiting for shields and triggers to recharge has to do with user action. Depending on player skill and upgrades, some tanks can always rotate in a fully or partially regenerated shield segment, during battle. Meaning, a good tank with a good driver can continuously engage in combat without waiting around for something to recharge. Triggers and, subsequently, the Vind cannot really be finessed in this way. Its mechanics simply demand that once its blast is on cooldown, players tread carefully and avoid even moderate danger until the Vind can attack again. I fear that even my extreme idea doesn't remedy this issue. 

Mar 9, 2015 8:52:08 GMT -5 @cardz said:

I think I like the idea of a damage-reflecting tank.
The first trigger reduces damage by a certain percentage for x seconds, and at the end fires a blast that deals damage relative to the amount reduced.
The second trigger refills health and/or shields, allowing you to tank, and therefore reflect, much more damage.
The third and fourth triggers could be short range damaging teleports. One backwards and one forwards.

You have to judge the amount of damage you take during your first trigger, to make sure you don't die before the damage blast goes off. At the same time, you want to tank as much as possible.
One of the triggers could be an invincibility trigger to guarantee that you are able to deal the damage without dying, but then it'd just be another Dragon.

I like this idea, as it opens up the possibility for healing classes to assist the Vindicator attacks. As an afterthought, I also wonder what utility an "aggro" trigger would have on the Vind. Imagine the ability to draw all enemy fire away from allies within a certain radius. This would certainly add to the team-play aspect, as long as other issues are fixed as well. 

I agree completely with your point about waiting on triggers and shields to be inherent boring gameplay. To be honest, that's my main dislike for the current scorpion. It's a lot of fun, but the fun is supplied in between bursts of trigger badassery, and the stuff in between is just waiting around with a rather useless tank :/

That's why one of my main thoughts on improvement is that the vind needs some ability to function outside of that single explosive trigger, by either having some sort of viable gun-shield array that can function on its own, or replacing its blink blast and heal triggers with something that actually has a substantial effect and plays with the tank respectively (since healing kinda jeopardizes that first trigger)

[rob]

I love this discussion!

Vind currently cannot be healed by allies. We did this so that nearby Paladin drivers couldn't troll Vindicator drivers.

[Crunch]

Mar 9, 2015 14:54:49 GMT -5 rob said:

I love this discussion!

Vind currently cannot be healed by allies. We did this so that nearby Paladin drivers couldn't troll Vindicator drivers.

I brought team healing up with the premise that the current state of the Vind's health would no longer be the determining factor in how much damage was output. Rather, a ratio of actual damage absorbed, during an active trigger state, would replace the current system. Just assumptions on top of assumptions. 

My perceived issues with past/current Vind are: 
• Blast determined by shield status leads to exploitation, was still a wait-around-for-cooldown tank
• Blast determined by HP status requires too much risk/effort/time vs reward, still a wait-around tank