Build 48

[Ood]

I mentioned somewhere that ideally I'd like to see unlocking tanks more as buying a 'hull' and basic equipment. You can then find, or buy, better lasers, shields, etc. You can't change the fundamental properties of the tank (no forward mounted laser on a Fury, and only a plasma turret on a hurricane for example), but you can increase the range, rate of fire, damage, shield capacity, etc.

[Stabbeh]

I suggested classes because it gives direction, otherwise I have the feeling people would just jam on all the best stuff and you'd see a lot of similar tanks that can do it all.
Having classes enforces a variety to gameplay so it doesn't stagnate.

I do like the convoy though, we need more stuff like that to break the monotony of clearing a fixed grid. Maybe enemy towns to conquer along with the neutral sockets? Dunno how that would work...

[amitp]

Steel Chaos, the game before RotMG, let you create your own tanks from parts. It wasn't as interesting as I had hoped. However, it didn't combine those parts with a drop system. RotMG with its fixed number of classes was an attempt to try the opposite of the build-your-own-class approach, and it seemed to work pretty well. Each class had a name, artwork, and uniqueness. When there aren't too many classes you can have conversations about them. I'm not opposed to trying a flexible system again but it should be different enough to avoid the “gray goo” that Steel Chaos fell into

Rob: I guess I was thinking if you bought and installed modules and then they were lost somehow, it'd be a currency sink of some sort, like items are in RotMG or damage/durability in some games. But I haven't thought of a way of doing this that wouldn't be too annoying…

[rob]

I was thinking that items would be consumed to gain a benefit (unlock a class, get an extra vault slot, install module on a tank, make your clan hall bigger, etc). You wouldn't be able to pry a module back off a tank you installed it on. Also, you can combine several items together to make a single, better item. These mechanisms act as item sinks. Will be be enough to counteract the free-flowing flood of items into the game via drops? I don't know. I suppose we could downgrade various things over time, or at death, but like you say, that might just get annoying. Maybe we just should implement the fun stuff and address problems when and if they come up.

I'm currently preferring predefined classes over free-form tank building. This is mainly because with free-form building, there will eventually be only a few viable builds which people will look up on the wiki. Whereas with classes, the dev team can hand-balance the tanks, even if there are a lot of them (for example, LoL/DotA). There can be customization, but it's smaller scale. For example, you might install a rate-of-fire buff to the Mustang's front gun, or a cooldown reduction on the Mustang's Isolinear Abrasive Blast trigger. Maybe each tank class has a few choices of what its "fifth trigger" could be, and you need to go find or buy the appropriate items to install it. But you wouldn't start with a hull and install whatever turrets, guns and triggers you want. As Amit said, I've tried that and I wasn't satisfied with the results.

[osx]

Loving the new graphics, everything looks so much nicer and smoother than when I started testing.

Thanks again Rob & Tim!

[tarbomb]

Do any of you guys have experience with the class system in Starfigter: Disputed Galaxy? (sadly this game is no longer around as the server has been shut down, but see here for a really thorough description of how stuff used to work there.)

Essentially each ship is equipped with a few base stats: speed, maneuverability, shields, locking angle, etc. These can't be upgraded. Each ship also has a standard laser cannon, and a predefined number of weapon slots, mine slots, utility slots, etc. You could equip anything you wanted into these slots, but since the number of them were finite and limited, you couldn't make something too OP, and the set stats gave some "consistency" to the tanks - you could put anything you want on an Enforcer, but since it only had two weapon slots, you had to use the short range energy-based weapons rather than the long range limited-ammo weapons; this, combined with its tough shields, low locking angle (forward shooting only), and maneuverability, essentially meant it was a dogfighting ship and nothing else.

I see Grid's drop system as moving towards a more elaborate version of this: you start with a base tank with certain fixed properties (shields, HP, maneuverability, and # of slots), which you'd build up with augments (linear, non-decreasing progression to reward time spent), prisms (linear, but fluctuating progression for all tanks to discourage death), and drops (lateral progression to add variety while maintaining relatively similar power). For instance, fury could have a lot of weapon slots, but counter that with limited utility slots and lower speed, while hornet would have one or two slots only but with a lot more power reserves that would boost the range/damage of its weapons.

On another note, I'm started to get mixed feelings about the new supertank buff. While I definitely like the fact that it's no longer a pushover, and like the fact that I get four chances at pulchs, several things about the buff bug me:

1) It's no longer possible to dodge by circling. That means all (nontrivial - buildings don't count) enemies except GCT in Grid now have one way to attack them: hit-and-run (and GCT has no bite anyway). Circling or strafing is no longer an option, and I feel that makes the game more mechanical.

2) The number of minions is too damn high! It's a tremendous disadvantage to single-target tanks, and due to the absurd cumulative damage output (from all sides) they put out, combined with the regeneration factor, makes this thing a pain.

3) The inaccessible position of the cross building in the middle, is grossly disadvantageous longer-ranged classes, which can't target it and must instead whittle at the outer tanks (which regenerate HP!) while trying to get their guns to not hit the minions.

PS: We can kill a convoy in three seconds flat with three corsairs and a wildfire. I'm not sure it was meant to be this easy...

[Ood]

I vaguely remember that game, TB... I liked the system as far as I remember and think it would do well here.

About super-tank buffs...

With an all 11 auged fury, the new super tank is the second most lethal damage dealer after Deltas. (Watchtowers don't count because you only take damage when not paying attention/lagging). They can have my shields down in ~3-5 seconds, and my HP gone in another few.

The cross-building placement is fine in my opinion, but the regeneration is quite high, even when there was 1 super tank some tanks could not kill them (hurricane, phantom?) what about now?

[quicklite]

Well, I like the new build, but I do agree that the prism thing should be repositioned when it shrinks.

Super tanks are now great fun, and a really interesting new challenge. Though I must add 2 things:

1) Sometimes, when I approach one, I lag out, my game freezes, and then I die. It kinda sucks, and I don't know what causes it.

2) Super tanks are now decisively harder than grid control towers. Therefore, they should be the big circle on the minimap, and the grid control tower should be the medium circle.

Convoys are a great challenge and also encourage teamwork (I barely managed to solo one of those damned things, and it wasn't even going through enemy territory!) and tbh I was a bit underwhelmed by its loot, considering how it can out-range a hornet, out-damage a delta, and, well, move. However, my impression was changed slightly when I decided to go after it with the corsair. Suddenly, it became a whole lot less frightening, and a whole lot less tactical for that matter. It was just a process of shield trigger, offensive triggers, blast, fall behind, shield trigger, blast, fall behind, shield trigger, blast, fall behind, etc. etc. And it worked, I killed it solo before it could even get past one sector. Of course, it was a different story entirely when the next convoy didn't even brush a cleared out sector, but as tarbomb said, having a few more people (which was the point, I thought), solves this problem. My solution to this would be the one that deltas use: a weak-ish but persistent sub-layer of minions, not for the purpose of offense, but just for the purpose of getting behind your tank as well as confusing your guns.

As for tanks:

To everyone who has read that other thread I made, you would know that I feel pretty strongly about the current classes, and what too much customization could do. However, my concerns were of an awkward mix between class and customization, and this idea of two extremes in my opinion sounds really great. As for which one I prefer: well, I don't. They are simply two different games. So all I can say is, what game do you want? A game where you collect tanks, or build tanks? Bubble Tanks 2, or Bubble Tanks Arena (references! <3)? A game where one guy will say to the other 'hey, look at this sweet tank I found!', or 'hey, look at this sweet tank I built with these gun parts!'? The choice is yours. In my opinion, neither choice will lead to a lesser game, but definitely a different game entirely.

And having tanks/modules scrapped upon unlocking more tanks/modules sounds like the most aggravating thing ever. You basically get punished for progress. Found something you like? Try not to find anything else then, or you'll lose it.

[gingerbear]

I think Tarbomb has written a good example of what the fusion of the current class system + module system could do.

I think having "base classes" for tanks is great, and you don't have to give the option of total dis/reassemble of modules to make a large-scale customization work. To keep the base concept of a certain tank, all you have to do is to limit what kind of upgrades it can have, for example a trailblazer could never mount a weapon slot (it could have 4 booster slots instead), or a hercules a shield upgrade, etc. On the other hand, aside from the "generic" upgrade system, class-specific modules would be also cool, for example an "Ignition Storage" for a Valkyre which adds DoT damage to the spray gun, or an upgrade for shock-gun users that makes the lighting forked or chained, etc...

I think being able to remove modules should be allowed, though. If we are "stuck" with our modules we won't be able to try different builds, which would degrade "costumization" into "upgrade", and augments already do that. By the way, I'd really like to be able to redistribute my VP points to see the differences. (Even if only for testing purposes.)

[hypevosa]

The way I was thinking the system would work well would be that, assuming you find and make items to create custom tanks, you lose one random piece of equipment when you die.

[Duco]

If you decide to do the ''DIY'' RPG-style tank, please add a ''weight'' sytem to it, preventing people from putting together the ultimate tank.

Nothing much to say about all this, really. This game is going in the right direction, you are doing it better then I ever could.

[hypevosa]

I think acceleration was a very overlooked stat honestly, it's very, very important to survivability.

[tarbomb]

I don't like the idea of the module system being tied into death.

This game is a co-op (i.e. non-competitive) game, and with sufficient diversity in modules, one with a very large endgame. Since the endgame can be so vast there's no need to institute a check on progression just for replay value, and as a result there's no need penalize carelessness, lag, exhaustion, etc. The impact of death should be limited to prisms and prisms alone, to discourage utterly stupid playing (and even so I feel that this is something that should be looked at; e.g. losing prisms forces dedicated scouts to spend time farming).

[hypevosa]

What's the point of a game you can't lose though? What is the point of death even if you instantly teleport back to where you were?

Games have rules and penalties because there's no conflict for the player, no interest to be found, in a game where you win 100% of the time. Even in farmville crops whither and die after a while, and bejeweled has a time limit on puzzles. There is little incentive to do anything, not to mention doing it well, when there's no competition or no risk to yourself - it is very few gamers who can really strive on the ethic of trying to beat themselves alone.

Death in this game needs to be harder to deal with, not easier, if the game is going to be more interesting for a larger group of people. I'm not saying we need permadeath, I'm not saying all modules should get destroyed on death, but losing a single piece of equipment would be something that would cause players to interact with others more. If I have everything but prisms forever, my game essentially ends when I've collected everything. You also can't have an in game market that works well when there's literally no scarcity, and thus far too much supply for the demand, of many resources. If this is how jetbolt keeps the servers running we really need to ensure it's something people actually want to and need to use now and again.

[Ood]

The lag is getting to be a bit much. With 3 or more players online it becomes very noticable.