Build 48

[tarbomb]

What is the point of death even if you instantly teleport back to where you were?

I'm not arguing that death should be trivial, but instead arguing that the penalty on death should be moved from the person (I lost my modules!) to the general game (one less person in the battlefield) by means of a teleport nerf. Perhaps teleport could work like a super-turbocharge: you'll get there, but you'll also take damage along the way when enemies shoot you (and the teleport drains power from your shield, so the damage goes straight to your hull).

Convoys open up the possibility of this being a balancing mechanic to a no-penalty-on-death scheme. We could make convoys be the central focus of the game, with the grid of enemies being more of a backdrop - we're an elite team operating behind enemy lines, and need to destroy certain convoys. You'd have scouts to get to the convoys and activate a homing beacon for the team to "teleport" to. As the team (hopefully with some healers) follows the convoy deeper into enemy territory to kill it, death becomes more of a burden: if you die, you personally don't lose anything, but you'll lose a lot of shields when trying to "teleport" to your team, and after a while you'll always die when teleporting anyway, so you'll miss out on the loot from the convoy. That makes skill a major part of the game, and allows for rarity that doesn't depend on luck or grinding.

The teleport nerf also rewards skill in other ways: you can't, for instance, jump to a scout that's traveled a long way to use him as a starting point for your own scouting run, since you'll be in no condition to scout when you arrive badly damaged. On the other hand, this scheme remains newbie-friendly: a newbie will take no damage teleporting to a team clearing on the frontier, since there are no enemies between the point of teleport and the team.

You also can't have an in game market that works well when there's literally no scarcity, and thus far too much supply for the demand, of many resources. If this is how jetbolt keeps the servers running we really need to ensure it's something people actually want to and need to use now and again.

How about this: modules can be installed on your tank, but will be destroyed when you remove them. This, combined with limited storage, mean the market will never be flooded and there will always be demand for items.

PS: There's been enormous lag lately in-game on the server. Rubberbanding, slow-loading enemies, etc. are present when there are 4+ people on.

[hypevosa]

Long IRC discussion:

14:44 Tarbomb What do you guys think of a teleport nerf?
14:48 Hypevosa I think it would keep players out of the action, which makes me a sad panda
14:48 --- Hypevosa is back
14:49 Hypevosa it's no fun having to drive somewhere or watching a timer slowly fill until you can teleport.
14:53 Tarbomb not that
14:53 Tarbomb did you see my post?
14:53 Tarbomb grid12.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=gotopost&board=general&thread=179&post=1804
14:56 Hypevosa Losing HP and or shielding on teleport is a strongly anti-grouping feature. The reason a personal penalty in this case is better is because it doesn't cause everyone else to hate you for dying. "Oh look, Bill died like a little faggot again so we have no healer, way to go Bill D:<" as opposed to losing something personal "Oh dude, you died, that sucks"
14:58 Tarbomb Well, as I said it would only apply to people doing deep enemy territory missions.
14:58 Hypevosa If someone in our group dies and it hurts all of us, there will be negative feelings towards that individual and they will likely be punished. If he can at least come back and help, and he lost something, it's instead a group desire to help him.
14:59 Hypevosa But is that not a situation that the group cares about more? They're even more boned when they lose someone then
14:59 Hypevosa while your situation would work with a group of mature, awesome people, we cannot assume all humans playing will be ideal. This game will become a brutal exercise for anyone who dies while grouping when needed
15:01 Tarbomb Most people at the upper echelons of the game are more mature than the general playerbase, no?
15:03 Hypevosa It depends, if you have people dedicating alot of time to the game, to the point they bother to form groups (guilds and the like), they get pretty serious
15:03 Hypevosa and it's not necessarily that they want to hate someone and they get off on it
15:04 Hypevosa so much as their drive to compete with other guilds and the like, will mean they treat others like a football coach treats players who aren't performing
15:05 --- randomg is back
15:05 randomg with performance enhancing drugs?
15:05 Hypevosa with "pep" talk
15:05 Hypevosa but my point is still that if you make it so much harder for a player to rejoin their group
15:05 Hypevosa you're fighting cooperation
15:06 Hypevosa you're fighting the grouping mechanic. And that's why personal penalty is much better in this instance.
15:07 randomg agreed, hypevosa
15:10 Hypevosa The only teleportation penalty I support is losing a % of your gridshards based on remaining HP and shield combined, or maybe 1 vp per teleport or something
15:10 Hypevosa it's a personal penalty that limits you from just ditching the group at a moment's notice
15:11 Hypevosa and makes you press your abilities and your tank rather than just ditch at the slightest chance of death
15:12 Tarbomb hypevosa here's something to mull over
15:12 Tarbomb have you ever been raged at for nexusing out out of a guild tomb?
15:12 Tarbomb I've never.
15:12 Tarbomb This situation is just like that.
15:12 Hypevosa I've seen people be raged at for it though
15:12 Tarbomb You die, you lose you chance at loot (except it's a bit more forgiving, since you may be able to come back)
15:13 Hypevosa Alot of bundles of wood being thrown around in the chat as I remember
15:13 Hypevosa but it's also different because a player stands to lose everything by staying
15:13 Tarbomb and most people I've played with would go "awww... better luck next time" rather than "FUCK YOU I'M ALONE AS A PALLY WITH MAD GEB"
15:14 Tarbomb Well, in this case the only time you'd be teleported back is when you die
15:14 Hypevosa permadeath meant that leaving was usually acceptable because no one would ever want to be forced to lose everything just so someone got a chance at SOMething
15:14 Tarbomb You'd literally have no choice to go back.
15:14 randomg sure tarbomb
15:14 randomg but once everyone is fucked
15:14 randomg they don't care what you lose
15:14 Hypevosa You also played with alot more respectable people tarbomb
15:15 randomg hypevosa lost everything?
15:15 randomg I LOST MY SHOT AT A PULCH, FUCK THAT GUY
15:15 randomg L2FP, GODDAMN SCRUB
15:15 randomg etc
15:15 randomg won't happen in mature groups, but it will happen to at least a large chunk of the playerbase
15:15 randomg the thing about tombs is that nobody is actually essential
15:15 randomg rogue dies? you spend some time clearing it
15:16 randomg bes kills your rogue? you can still take down bess and nut, even if not geb
15:17 Hypevosa Yeah, randomg has a good point there, in grid we're really setting up to have enemies you actually cannot solo, because they disappear after a while. Group rage would be stronger for this, you're actually needed sometimes.
15:18 Hypevosa Our "cube god" disappears after a minute, he doesn't sit until someone finally comes to fight him.
15:18 Tarbomb But if convoys come every twenty minutes, the rarity factor is not that much.
15:18 randomg sure, but what about a rare encounter?
15:18 *** Odin joined #Grid12
15:18 +++ ChanServ has given voice to Odin
15:18 randomg (i'm assuming that not every encounter will be so readily available)
15:18 Tarbomb And I'd rather be yelled at by some scrubs than lose a module
15:19 Odin o/
15:19 randomg _o/
15:19 randomg en garde!
15:20 Odin _o| pls dont hurt me
15:20 Hypevosa I'd rather lose a single easily replaced module, than lose the painstakingly earned respect (or chance at respect) from a group of players who took a chance on me
15:20 randomg ^
15:20 Hypevosa and \o the one eyed god
15:20 Odin
15:20 Odin Ohh did you guys hear about the ESEA scandal?
15:20 Hypevosa No?
15:21 randomg oh
15:21 randomg here we go
15:21 randomg hypevosa AND tarbomb might like this one
15:21 randomg what if clicking teleport sets a node on the player you click
15:21 Odin basically
15:21 randomg if they do nothing
15:21 Odin ESEA uses clients to coordinate game play
15:21 randomg you come through tarbomb style, naked
15:21 Odin turns out, they installed bitcoin mining software on all of their clients
15:21 randomg (after 5-10 seconds)
15:21 Odin and made over 50k
15:22 randomg what's wrong with that Odin?
15:22 Odin They didn't tell anyone
15:22 Odin It was a massive breach of trust
15:22 randomg so?
15:22 Odin And it isn't as if its free, people pay money every month for that
15:22 randomg fair enough
15:22 Odin people are paying to have their graphics cards worn out and their electricity sapped
15:22 Odin it'd be reasonable if it was a free client
15:22 Odin imo
15:22 randomg yeah, that's a good point
15:23 randomg but Hypevosa: what if you could use your tank to power a portal
15:23 Tarbomb brb
15:23 randomg and a tank that came through a fully powered portal would have full health
15:23 Odin Tarbomb: that's a great article
15:23 Tarbomb in class for 1.5 hr
15:23 Odin www.paulgraham.com/disagree.html
15:23 randomg which would allow teammates to bring their friends back into battle full strength
15:23 randomg but also dissuade players from cheese
15:23 Hypevosa It inhibits group mechanics a bit, but it's not as damning if someone has to help you at the other end too
15:24 Hypevosa how would we make it easy to power them through though?
15:24 randomg i think it becomes more of a case of encouragng you to fill your role
15:24 randomg go sit on the portal?
15:24 randomg portal bar fills up
15:24 Hypevosa anti-mobile enemy
15:24 randomg and that % of shield is granted on pull through?
15:24 Hypevosa it would need to be a button
15:25 randomg that's fine
15:25 amitp In the places I've seen that had limits on teleportation, and then lifted the limits, everyone loved the freedom but over time the sense of place eroded. Grid12 doesn't really have much sense of place and I don't think Rob's interested in that.
15:25 Hypevosa we could put it as a little "trigger" button
15:26 Hypevosa what do you mean by "sense of place"?
15:26 randomg maybe a teleport takes 10 seconds wtihout help
15:26 randomg after 5 seconds of charge you get full shields
15:26 randomg *2.5
15:26 randomg after another 2.5 you get pulled in faster
15:26 randomg or immediately
15:27 Hypevosa (no fun waiting for a recharge, made me a sad panda all the time when it happened in realm, especially when I was denied teleportation)
15:27 Odin unlimited tele woudl be broken in realm
15:28 Odin you would become infinite spy man
15:28 Hypevosa it was more just a pain when I didn't get to teleport because someone logged or nexused or whatever
15:28 Odin oh right
15:28 Odin i remember that
15:29 Hypevosa the beauty of no time limit is we don't worry about that problem
15:30 Odin it also lends itself to broken play
15:30 Odin would you rather have a half second of invincibility on teleport
15:30 Odin or a 0 second cooldown?
15:31 Hypevosa 0 second cooldown
15:31 Hypevosa not even our antimatter tanker is instant death to a character on teleport
15:32 Hypevosa if we can avoid instant death enemies, we don't need invincibility since the player can use their own reflexes to save their butt
15:32 randomg yeah hypevosa, that's what I was trying to achieve with the portals
15:32 randomg once the portal is set
15:32 randomg you're GOING through
15:32 randomg one way or another
15:32 randomg maybe allow the portal to charge independent of player
15:32 Hypevosa maybe let them drive onto the portal and hit a button then
15:33 randomg so if things change you can just not go thorugh
15:33 randomg .....
15:33 Hypevosa but forcing someone to sit on a portal would be tedious
15:33 randomg oh you
15:33 Hypevosa and any mobile enemies would make it hard to get people to help with
15:34 Hypevosa 8 seconds or so would be long enough without being a pain to wait for,
15:34 Hypevosa and if a player hitting the button took off 5 seconds (down to instant teleport) groups could get people places quickly
15:35 Hypevosa "Establishing connection" "Signal boosted by proxy."
15:35 randomg perfect
15:36 Hypevosa 2 people would make for instant teleport
15:36 Hypevosa so really organized groups would never be separated for long
15:37 randomg yeah, signal boosts should stack
15:37 randomg errr
15:38 randomg *i think they should just stack
15:38 randomg and some monsters could jam signal
15:38 randomg slowing it down
15:38 amitp At one point we had talked about using grid shards to build teleport points, and then you'd have to defend them. So as you conquer an area you might place one there, but you wouldn't want to be too close to enemy territory
15:39 randomg that would be sick
15:39 Hypevosa I would love to not have to go to nearest town all the time

[sven]

Convoy Gripe

I literally ran into a complication during my lone travels on Trailblazer in the wilderness where the screen suddenly froze on me, the enemies around me aren't hostile enough to take me down. Until the screen unfroze, I immediately died till I observe what could've killed on the spot where I last left off. The enemy that killed me was Antimatter Tanker (A Convoy) a red dot indication appeared on the spot where I got killed off...

This death was definitely cheap and uncalled for! There isn't a notice or incoming message when will it be spawn yet alone finding time to teleport. I don't believe the "z" key or the teleport could've save me if the game screen keeps freezing on me at the drastic times. Even if I did succeed, the timing consist on 2 seconds delay for the teleport to take action which shouldn't be occurring. Out of deaths that I dealt with including the bugged, I hope I won't have to deal this spawn-like death again. I wouldn't want to see it happen to anyone for that matter unless they willing to replicate this event.

Bug Report

Since FPS manipulation method got null... I stumbled upon yet another fluke of viewing regions ahead although what I viewed can't be carried over when refreshing the browser. (Screen 1) (Screen 2)
I can't explain how I replicate it exactly... Exploring over the region boundaries the message "COMLINK RECALL IMMINENT" doesn't apply to this side of the client. Enemies of the unexplored areas are not shown, chat isn't accessible, changing tanks does not work, and teleport disabled.

After refresh, the game's performance returns to normal state. With the experience of the past stunt pulled, predicting the type of region that's soon to be discover will be accurate. (Screen Refresh)

Not a bug...

A small suggestion about customizable zoom key set up by double pressing the zoom key have the screen automatically adjusted? (QQ for Default Zoom) (EE for Far Zoom)

The new UI looks neat overall!

[hypevosa]

sven - I can't fathom the unluckiness you had with the antimatter tanker spawning directly ontop of you, given the literally hundreds+ directions it could spawn from instead. You really hit the jackpot there.

However, I do agree that a small warning is warranted.

[gingerbear]

Ever since build 47, whenever the amount of triangles reach 10k - 15k (sparkly effects on many minions caused by phantom, fury, mustang, etc, generally around drills, supertanks and other crowded places), the game suddenly freezes. I don't know whether it's my computers weakness, a memory leak or a flash problem, but its becoming frequent lately and it's a hell lot annoying.

Win7 32-bit, Dx9 baseline constrained, Chrome.

[quicklite]

About death:

At the moment, I think that death needs to be a bit less discouraged. Please bear in mind that I don't want permadeath: I like the nice safety of being able to play in lag; I'll try not to die, but death isn't bad enough to deter me from the fear of, well, lagging out and dying, in contrary to if I was using maxed out realm guy, in which I wouldn't play at all for fear of losing months of progress. I'm not saying that permadeath is bad, it's what makes realm awesome. But I'd like death in grid to be more a slap in the face than, well, losing a little bit of prestige and a -1.2% bonus to stats, without it being everything. I'd like to be a little bit more wary of death while in-game without being completely f***** terrified of it. So I support hype's idea of having one random module lost. It definitely won't be the end of the world (I like to assume that most players will have a nice stash of modules in their long term storages), but it will be enough to make you pull out of that delta just a little bit earlier, keeping you on your toes and exciting you without the 'aw crap, time to farm for a month' feeling that you got if you lost your (in some cases, last remaining, but usually only) maxed char in realm.

[tarbomb]

May 3, 2013 9:50:41 GMT -5 hypevosa said:

sven - I can't fathom the unluckiness you had with the antimatter tanker spawning directly ontop of you, given the literally hundreds+ directions it could spawn from instead. You really hit the jackpot there.

However, I do agree that a small warning is warranted.

It's not that uncommon.

Just yesterday I was scouting normally when I went right under an antimatter tanker. Fortunately I wasn't lagging that badly and managed to cloak before entering its range.

I guess if you scout enough, convoy encounters are going to become normal to you.

[hypevosa]

The way Rob described the antimatter tanker finds a path through the map, it would be unluckier and unluckier as the explored area gets larger, though it would be somewhat common at a map's inception.

[sven]

Technical Issue

During my time of trying to mimic the client glitch that I came across the other day by disable/ disconnect my online connection. The results did not go as I hoped for so I rule out this possibility. To be specific how I disconnect/ disable connection-

• I flipped the switch on the internet modem to "off" then switch it back to "on"
  
• Open up Network Connections, right-click Local Area Connection (Connection currently using) hit disable then right-click again hit enable.
  
• Those are the two options I've tried out.
  

The results, I ended up with this error when I fully gain connection again. I managed to explore many scenarios possible if there were to be online connection interference causing logged in problems.

• When refreshing the web browser, the error appeared on screen after hitting play. Also apply to exiting browser and revisiting Grid12 page.
  
• Log out and logging back in, the error still persist. Is there something going on between the difference of disconnect by connection and exiting normally? The recognition is uncanny.
  
• Last resort, I restart the computer when all possible solution methods used up.
  

Note: Refreshing G12 does work sometimes (Not continuously refreshing, once it doesn't work it'll remain that way) where logging out and getting back in succeed by a slight chance. (if not proceed to the last option)

Reminder?

Back in Build 47-

Apr 24, 2013 12:24:08 GMT -5 rob said:

* Make tank stop on menu open (we may undo this eventually)

I wasn't too sure if you meant by removing the menu pop-up when tanks are moving thus pressing the menu won't halt the tank as the menu will have no impact of functionality or something of the sort.

I have a suggestions in mind-

• Pressing the unhiglighted tank button when being outside of town grounds will have a message notified through chat. Instead of going through two step process of opening up a tank menu, pick out a tank, then message noted. Except for this proposal, open tank menu when not in town the pop-up is no longer needed, message still process, and tanks are not halted suddenly where they can move freely.
  
• With the crystal uncrafted when being outside of the town premises, pressing the empty crystal icon shouldn't open a menu to begin with. Along with the message composed in chat.
  
• What's strange is that clicking on the augment button when being outside doesn't leave notification that it must be done in town.
  
• Overall, the menus should at least function have similar function/ effect as the augments. (Exclude the message setback)
  

Mouse oriented users will no longer make heinous blunder onto themselves by accidentally pressing the menu buttons leaving them vulnerably halted in the battleground. With a sensible interface functionality & without penalizing niche users, G12 will be user-friendly and comfortable game to play if one were to looked past the harsh starting point solo. ^^; Speaking of niche users- (For the keyboard)

For crafting crystal there isn't shortcut keys for creation (respectively, X, C, V slot individually) yet alone already programed to be in use once created. [Example in use, Empty Slot 1 - press X in town, Selecting which crystal to craft from (x = small, c = med., v = big)

The current chat width does appear small. :\ How about extend it to at least 300 pixels? Not alternating characters limits. The Server message isn't consistent with the color text unless it's meant for sticking out giving different messages. Will the server message for augment be green?

Bug

While the halt feature takes effect when a menu opens up, it's possible for a person to upgrade their augment being outside of town. First, go to town and open up the Augment menu. Then, hit press the teleport button it cancels out the halt effect. Zoom in close and drive through (with W, A, S, D keys) till the town tiles are no longer familiar. Afterwards select any form of augment available to upgrade and hit confirm. A very bizarre loophole that serves nothing reasonable...

How about have any form of teleport either through the "z" key or the pressing the Teleport button rid any menu pop-up on the screen? Not the top priority, although I'm grateful to see the interface getting spruced as it gets a nifty overhaul!

[hypevosa]

honestly, I don't think the buttons should even be there if we're not in a town - why take up valuable real estate with useless buttons?

[tarbomb]

Minions in towns are getting seriously annoying. I was scouting and hit escape at around 30% HP. By the time I was back, I had about 10% (due to lag), and when I was chatting I was summarily killed by a flying supply station minion (obviously, ESC did nothing to help).

[rob]

I was thinking maybe ESC should send you back to Origin instead of the nearest town. It'll make it less convenient to get back to fighting after you use it, which I think is good. And except for the first 5 minutes of a game, you'll not need to worry about ESC-ing into a fight.

[gingerbear]

May 7, 2013 17:46:11 GMT -5 rob said:

I was thinking maybe ESC should send you back to Origin instead of the nearest town. It'll make it less convenient to get back to fighting after you use it, which I think is good. And except for the first 5 minutes of a game, you'll not need to worry about ESC-ing into a fight.

The first convoy starts at the very same time when the new game starts, so you have to either dodge it or fight it as it goes through very near to the city center (right at the beginning)... Would it be possible to change it spawning at the end of the 20 minutes?

[rob]

May 7, 2013 18:30:06 GMT -5 gingerbear said:

The first convoy starts at the very same time when the new game starts, so you have to either dodge it or fight it as it goes through very near to the city center (right at the beginning)... Would it be possible to change it spawning at the end of the 20 minutes?

Already coded up a few days ago. It'll be in Wednesday's push.

[hypevosa]

Capital idea - I've been yearning for an origin button, but didn't really know what to suggest, escape works well.

Will all convoys be on simple timers or will there be other things that trigger them, like killing X delta refineries, etc? I would also like to see particularly powerful convoys or the like that restrict themselves to when X players are on - or if they don't, giving them a circuitous path rather than a line straight through so they can be whittled down.